Russel, I have played around a lot with the KR GPS data, coupled with testing rod performance. I have found the GPS calculates a choke point by multiplying the distance from the stripper to the tip top by approximately 0.42 (that’s the average number I came up with) and it places the choke guide this distance in front of the stripper. Doesn’t seem to matter much what the reel size is or for that matter the size of the line. In your case inputting a 2000 reel with 20-30 lb braid gives you the same reduction train length as if you inputted a1000 reel with 4-10 braid, it just increases the stripper size and pushes it a little bit further out. What does happen with the KR GPS is with longer rods the choke point moves further out and thus the reduction train increases in length, and vice versa for shorter rods. Thus the KRGPS sees the choke point as a moveable point, so it can certainly be moved in or out somewhat with out decreasing performance. For most rods from 6’ to 8’ the GPS does a great job. In my opinion for longer rods the choke is placed too far away, and for shorter rods the choke is placed a little too close. It should also be mentioned that 27X method, developed by Tom Kirkman, is also a suggested choke position. It was developed by averaging the choke positions obtained by the Fuji reel upsweep method, which places the choke pt based on the upsweep angle of the reel. Different reels have different up sweeps, and some have no upsweep, thus different choke points for different reels This was very confusing, so Tom found that 27X the spool diameter gives an average choke point position for reels having various upsweep angles. So it is also an approximation, not something locked in stone and it can certainly be moved in or out. I have found that there is a lot of flexibility in laying out out a guide train, especially when using braid. The KR GPS could have asked for the distance from the spool to the tip top, rather than asking for length from butt to the spool and just skip asking for rod length, you would still get the same results. I don’t like how the KR GPS will sometimes give non progressive spacing within the reduction train, making it hard to get a bullseye. I find progressively spacing the reduction train makes it easier to get the bullseye. I also found that adding a extra running guide or two gives a better static test and also allows for a more progressive guide placement, and from my testing helps somewhat with performance. I have built a couple of hundred KR concept spinning rod since the concept was introduced. I have to say it’s the best performing guide concept I have ever used. It gives smooth quiet and long casts. Try it you won’t be disappointed.
Norm

Very nicely worded and I am in total agreement Norman. All the posts make it sound very straight foreword and easy. It was my first go around but I was a surprised I was having difficulties. A little unrealistic I suppose.

I inputted for a 7 foot rod with a 1000 reel, light braid, with the reel tip at 11.5". The suggested train was 16H, 8H, 5.5M. Distances were 19", 8.56", 6.33", and 7.58". The 7.58" just didn't "feel" right. I went with it and the reduction guides lined up fine but the choker didn't. I made a little side comment about that and things devolved from there. The results for a 2000 reel with 20-30 braid will probably be perfect.

I'm sure I'm going to love the KR concept. I'm very grateful for the software and all the research Fuji has done. Sorry if I conveyed anything different.

Russ in Hollywood, FL.

Russell- That’s exactly what I’m talking about getting non progressive spacing in the reduction train. It drives me crazy, and I really think it’s a glitch in the program. The numbers you gave add up to a reduction train length of 22.47”, which is exactly what you get if if you multiply the distance from the stripper to the tip top, which is 53.5” (84 - 11.5 - 19 = 53.5) by 0.42. (0.42 X 53.5 = 22.47) What I do is to progressively space the two reduction guides between the stripper and the choke point and then progressively space the runners between the tip top and the choke. I will usually add an extra guide or two for a good static test and move the choke in or out a little to get a nice progressive spacing through out. I do all my measurements using the metric system, really does make things much easier than trying to work with fractions of an inch.
Norm

Thanks again Norman. I was beginning to feel like I was doing something wrong.

Interesting how things change going to a 2000 reel with 20-30# braid (which seems a rather unlikely pairing IMHO). The spacing becomes closer to progressive at 20", 8.94", 6.77", and 6.34".

All things are never equal but lets pretend for the sake of a thought experiment. Given that we have two rods of equal power using the same reel,line, and guide train.......do you (personally) feel that they should have quite different choke points because one happens to 5' and one 9'? A 4' difference in blank length should push the choke point out an additional amount of 48(.42) = 20.16".

I don't think it so farfetched to use a 1000 reel and light braid with a three guide reduction chain on something like a light power steelhead/salmon rod. If it isn't farfetched, why would I want to move my choke point out another 20+ inches?

Yes, I understand I am taking things to an extreme. Maybe somewhere I missed the point that the KR gps locator is only valid for a certain range of rod lengths? That is entirely possible.

I am not finding fault. Just mentioning what I discovered on my first go around as I hadn't heard it mentioned before. Seems you discovered it long ago.

Russ in Hollywood, FL.

I have encountered another factor on light and ultralight light, especially slower action blanks or shorter blanks. You might have to adjust your reduction train and choke guide or use more guides than recommended to properly support the static load. I tend to play around with guide placement and number of guides way more more on light and ul rods. A medium on up you can darn near build off a data sheet with no testing and get a near perfect setup.

As for spool width with braid I have seen no difference. I have used reels from tiny 1000 series to the 2500 size large arbor pflueger on the same rod and see no difference in casting.

Russell, I agree with you I think the kR GPS doesn’t do a good job with very short rods or very long rods. In order to illustrate this, lets take your scenarios and see what happens. We will use the same reel (1000), line (4-10 braid), and butt to spool length (11.5”). For a 60” rod the GPS puts the stripper 19” in front of the spool, with a reduction train length of 12”, and recommends 1 running guide. This is ridiculous! The reduction train is much to short and one running guides is obviously not enough. For these short rods I tend to make the reduction train length about the same distance as the distance from the spool to the stripper (about 18 - 20”), then progressively space the two reduction guides between the stripper and choke, and progressively place the remaining runners between the choke and tip. As I mentioned previously, I will move the choke a little in or out to get the spacing I like. For a 78” rod the GPS places the stripper at 19” in front of the spool and the reduction train length is also 19”, and 4 runners are recommended. These values are fine, except I would use and extra runner or two. For a 90” rod the GPS put the stripper at 19” from spool, with a reduction train length of 24”, and 6 runners recommended. These values are also ok even the number of runners, although I might use one extra, depending on the static test. For 108” rod the stripper is still at 19” in front of the spool, but the reduction train length has increased to 32”, with an undetermined number of runners recommended. I find this reduction train length to be too long, and it can certainly be reduced without any loss of function. It is not unreasonable to believe that once you have found an optimum stripper position and reduction train length for a given reel and line, then these value do not have to vary with increasing or decreasing rod length, you just vary the number of running guides. However, increasing the reduction train length, within reason, does make sense in that you don’t have to use an in ordinate number of running guides. I have tested very similar scenarios when I was first setting up the KR concept. I found that the ‘sweet spot’ for the KRGPS was for rods in the 78 to 96” range. It gives a very good starting point. Increasing or decreasing reduction train length, within reason, really made very little difference in performance. This really brought home the concept that setting up a well performing guide train is quite flexible. Moving stripper and choke guides in or out a little makes very little or no difference in performance. Once you understand this, setting up a guide train becomes quite easy. The GPS serves as a very good recommendation for a starting point. Hope this makes sense.
Norm

Norman thanks once again for indulging me in this conversation. Perhaps this information had been posted before. If so, I missed it. Perhaps everyone felt it was self evident?


"It is not unreasonable to believe that once you have found an optimum stripper position and reduction train length for a given reel and line, then these value do not have to vary with increasing or decreasing rod length, you just vary the number of running guides. However, increasing the reduction train length, within reason, does make sense in that you don’t have to use an in ordinate number of running guides."

I am in total agreement. "I think" how much I'd be willing to increase the reduction train length would depend upon the blank. The slower the action, the less I would want to increase it. I wouldn't want to speak for him but I think Michael is alluding to that above. He has mentioned dropping a reduction guide on very light powered rods

Michael, thanks for that info on casting distance. Do you have any favorites for light braid? I'm probably too cheap to buy the really good stuff.

Russ in Hollywood, FL.

David is correct about Norm's method. If your spool has one of those little clips on it to hold the free end of the line, you can strip enough line to reach thru the reduction guides and choke guide, slip the line in the clip on the reel and hang a weight on ir after it exits the choker. Turn the spool to the bottom of the rod and you have a straight line from the bottom of the spool coming out of the choke. You can now move the reduction guides as needed to create a straight line. Whoops, should have read page two before I posted this. Lol



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/27/2021 08:00PM by Lynn Behler.

Russ that is exactly what I was alluding to. In a perfect world we could set the reduction train perfectly and separately from the runners. But on the slower blanks we have to pay more attention to the relation of the two and realize the reduction guides but have to do the work of runners as well. As such placement might be affected.

One rod I built called for the stripper to fall at around 19 inches from the reel, fairly typical. Static load required me to go with two extra runners and move the entire guide train back. The stripper ended up only 13 inches from the reel. Works just fine load is distributed perfectly.

As you mentioned I have done a two guide reduction on light rods. With very light braid there is no coils to bring under control. Really ain't much different in my mind than a fly rod. You using the stripper to step the line down from the reel to runners. There is nothing to choke. I have not tried just a stripper guide. Think the step down to the runners would be too quick and might cause issues with line coming off the spool. Fly rod stripper is generally much further from the reel and in turn the step to the runners is much less. The guide reduction has worked just fine.

As for line I like Power Pro. Don't know how it compares pricewise to others. I have it wound on at the baitshop. Was the first braid I tried. Have found nothing about it that I don't like, so have had no reason to try anything else. I run five pound on my ultralight and eight on my light to med light. Six pound flouro leader.

I am a J braid/Yo-Zuri fan but probably wouldn't buy smaller than 10#. For what you (and Mark) are doing I'd be inclined to try Nanofil. Expect a learning curve WRT knots.

At first I was regretting making a comment about having problems with the guide train. Now I'm glad I did. I certainly have a better understanding.

Russ in Hollywood, FL.

Quick note. I got a bunch of pretty high end Japanese UL rods and cast 2 lbs fluoro and a size 1000 reel. Some of them even had a size 12 first (butt) guide. (Fuji Torzites) I found that those with distance from spool to 1st guide of about 23 inches actually had the longest casting distance. I had, in the past, been building with about 20 inches distance. So I now build with a longer distance between spool and 1st guide. With 2 lbs, I did not find any difference between 12 and 16 first guide. However, I loath using size 12 as it just looks too small. Does save me 0.01 oz though....LOL!!

With flouro I can see a need for more distance when coming off a 1000 series. Never used 2 lb but all the flouro I tried in the 4 to 10 pound range had the most memory and stiffest coiling of any line I have used. Most shops in my area recommend to not use flouro on any spinning reel.

As for nanofil have heard too much bad about it to roll the dice. Powerpro to a Seagaur Blue Label flouro leader works fine. I have been able to use all my knots that I have memorized over 35 years. In the three seasons since switching to this combo I have had zero failures related to knots no breakage due to dead weight lift within weight range of the line.

For guide size with 5 lb braid I am down to a size Pac Bay minima 8m. Yes it looks outside of normal but it works. Was going for as much weight savings as possible. Not that your going to notice .005 to maybe .015 of an ounce.

But at least it is an outlet for my OCD... LOL

What makes one guide train superior to another? It certainly is not casting distance, since neither rod-component vendors nor rod builders have presented a shred of physical evidence that any one guide train actually performs better than any other guide train!

Russell, please accept my sincere apology if I made you feel awkward at all. It surely wasn't my intention. In reading, and learning from this thread, I didn't realize there were the kind of variables in the results the software provided. I don't use the kind of equipment that leads to the kind of things being discussed. For the types of rods I use, it works beautifully.

Anyhow ....... my apologies if I made you hesitant in the least. It wasn't my intention

No problems David and no need to apologize. I have always enjoyed you posts.

Remember, it was my fist go around with KR guides and the software. The more I played the more I saw that I wasn’t comfortable with. With so many adamant about it providing perfect results I didn’t know what to think. Then Norm got me straightened out.

Hopefully we all learned a little something from the exchange. I know I did. That what makes this forum so great.

Russ in Hollywood, FL.

Mo Yang Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Quick note. I got a bunch of pretty high end
> Japanese UL rods and cast 2 lbs fluoro and a size
> 1000 reel. Some of them even had a size 12 first
> (butt) guide. (Fuji Torzites) I found that those
> with distance from spool to 1st guide of about 23
> inches actually had the longest casting distance.



Wow, a 12 ring as a butt guide that's the smallest we have talked about so far but a good lesson in that with braid go SMALL on the butt guide just get the distance from the spool correct and you will have a rocket launcher . Don't be fooled into thinking you need a larger butt size ring because in the overwhelming majority of cases it's a mistake . Just space the smaller sizes a little further out . ONLY go to a larger ring if the current size ring still doesn't work well when spaced as far out as you deem acceptable.

Chis, Mike just mentioned using a size 8 minima and butt guides as close as 13”.

Russ in Hollywood, FL.

Thanks, David. As we were introduced to the rules of the KR concept by the Japanese engineers that developed it, we could glean a few themes early in the process. I don't remember exactly but I built probably 40-50 rods using the concepts from them and made notes of mathematical equivalencies from rod to rod regardless of length, power, line weight and reel size. All assumptions were based on the original Japanese suggestions and "limits". From there, I enlisted the help of a math guy/web guy talented enough to turn written steps from point A to point B into spreadsheet formulas and GPS for KR was born. KR, once "quantified" for something like a web app, pretty much HAD to fall within upper and lower limits and that is often the reason some guys go off the rails and find results a little odd. Filling in a blank a little differently often brings a design "in spec" and allows results that are usually pretty close. It will never be perfect, but it's good to know it helps so many people navigate the concept and build rods that in most cases perform very well. Norm was an early student and his background has taken him to a very high level of understanding. I trust Norm's advice and he has certainly helped us out over the years in "tech support". Thanks, Norm!

Ha ha ha ha ha , I missed that . Yeah , so now that's the new record now a size 8 . Soon we will be at a 4.5 running guide as the butt guide.

Jim, thanks for the compliment and for introducing us to the KR concept. They are greatly appreciated.
Norm