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Hook sets when worm fishing
Posted by: ben belote (---.zoominternet.net)
Date: February 16, 2021 01:00PM

Is it possible to make guide wraps too tight so that on a cross-their-eyes hook set the rod breaks because the rod doesn,t transfer the energy smoothly and quickly to the butt and builds up too much energy at the wrap?

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Re: Hook sets when worm fishing
Posted by: Kent Griffith (---)
Date: February 16, 2021 01:07PM

Tip guide takes all or most of that hook setting force. The guides down the blank do not experience side pulling loads like that tip does. The guide closest to the tip will experience the next highest load pull, but it is a mere fraction of what the tip experiences when setting the hook. And this loading force on the guides gets progressively less with each guide moving closer to the reel.

If a rod breaks, it could be a damaged rod, or a factory flawed rod, or the angler simply asked too much of it.

I have witnessed this happen on mostly cheap Chinese rods and one U.S. made Falcon, but I seriously doubt if it has anything to do with thread wraps being too tight on a guide.

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Re: Hook sets when worm fishing
Posted by: Joseph Willsen (---.dyn.optonline.net)
Date: February 16, 2021 01:52PM

Sorry...double post



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/16/2021 01:56PM by Joseph Willsen.

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Re: Hook sets when worm fishing
Posted by: Joseph Willsen (---.dyn.optonline.net)
Date: February 16, 2021 01:54PM

That sounds like high-sticking to me.

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Re: Hook sets when worm fishing
Posted by: David Baylor (---.res6.spectrum.com)
Date: February 16, 2021 04:51PM

I wrap my guides extremely tight, so much so that I can barely move them when doing the final alignment prior to applying the finish. I have never broken a rod I built, on a hook set. And when I am fishing heavy cover, I'm one of those guys that hit the fish hard. I want to move the fish with the hook set, and if it comes flying out of the water in the process, so much the better.

I've heard of guys breaking high modulus rods on the hook set when using braided line, but I personally haven't had one break for that reason.

I'm thinking defect in the blank, or as Joseph commented, high sticking.

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Re: Hook sets when worm fishing
Posted by: ben belote (---.zoominternet.net)
Date: February 16, 2021 06:26PM

David, you bring up an interesting point..do the breaks with braided line occure at the wraps or between the wraps which is the weakest points of a rod..this break was up tight against the wrap and very clean and he uses braid..maybe braid transfers the load too fast for tight wraps and higher modulus rods??braid doesn,t break all high moduus rods..maybe the wraps have something to do with it?? maybe you can use braid on high modulus if you wrap with a softer tension??

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Re: Hook sets when worm fishing
Posted by: Mark Talmo (---)
Date: February 16, 2021 06:59PM

Ben,
Many if not most people do not realize how much compressive force they are applying to a blank with the thread wraps. Consider that when wrapping a blank with 0.5lb of thread tension, an inch long wrap (approximately 88 rotations of size A) will exert 44lbs of compressive force on the blank; that is quite a bit more than most would expect. Granted that 44lbs is concentrically/evenly applying the force around the entire blank and not just at one point. Ultimately, the blank has 44lb of compressive force right next to an area with no constrictive force which could possibly constitute a “stress riser”. One also needs to acknowledge the fact that the thread adds a considerable amount of strength (especially hoop strength) and, once again, that additional strength stops abruptly, possibly adding to the stress riser equation. None the less, I doubt (excessive) thread tension alone would cause the blank to fail upon the hook set, but combined with the abrupt edge of additional strength of the thread, who knows, possibly. Did the blank fail right at the edge of a thread wrap?

Mark Talmo
FISHING IS NOT AN ESCAPE FROM LIFE BUT RATHER A DEEPER IMMERSION INTO IT!!! BUILDING YOUR OWN SIMPLY ENHANCES THE EXPERIENCE.

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Re: Hook sets when worm fishing
Posted by: Phil Ewanicki (---.res.spectrum.com)
Date: February 16, 2021 07:10PM

If you sharpen your hooks in a good triangle point there is no practical need for a violent hook set. The few broken rods I have seen after a hook set showed unmistakable evidence of previous damage, probably from encounters with a door.

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Re: Hook sets when worm fishing
Posted by: Spencer Phipps (---)
Date: February 16, 2021 07:45PM

Guides knife edge prepped with burrs can damage a rod at the end of a guide wrap. I've seen more rods broken on immovable objects than fish, though few admit it.

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Re: Hook sets when worm fishing
Posted by: David Baylor (---.res6.spectrum.com)
Date: February 16, 2021 09:36PM

Ben, I don't know where their breaks actually occurred on the rod. I've just had buddies tell me they broke a rod on the hook set when using heavy braid. I use 65# braid on my rod I built on an Immortal IMMC72MH when I am using it as my frog rod. Granted, the hook sets are at a longer distance than they would be if I were flipping or pitching to heavy cover, but it hasn't broken.

I was actually thinking the same thing that Spencer mentioned, possibly a burr on the guide foot caused when prepping the guide foot.

Norman, I never really thought about compressive force exerted by thread wraps. That's quite a bit of force you laid out. I have no idea what kind of tension weight wise that my thread is under when I wrap. It's probably approaching the .5 lb number that you mentioned though. I may try backing it down a bit on my next build just a bit. I know I have wondered about that when I am having that much trouble moving the guides before applying finish.

And Phil. there are more than a few practical reasons for hard hook sets. It's not a macho thing, it serves a purpose. Moving the fish when that fish is in heavy cover, is more than practical. IMO it's a requirement. Many times when fishing heavy cover you're putting your bait into places where there is only one way in, and one way out. Hitting the fish hard turns its' head, and gets the fish coming out the same way the bait went in. If you don't set the hook hard and get the fish moving on the hook set, the chances are good that you aren't going to land that fish. Sometimes when you have a fish in heavy cover and you have him pegged up against a solid object you have to give the fish line so he can get free of the obstacle, but it's more so you have a chance to turn the fish's head again and get it coming out head first.

Then there is also the fact that you need to move the bait in the fish's mouth in order to start hook penetration. If you don't move the bait in the fish's mouth, especially with Texas rigged soft plastics, or jigs with heavy weed guards, you aren't going to start hook penetration. The more bulky the bait, the easier it is for a bass to really clamp down on the bait, and the harder it is to move the bait in its' mouth. And bass can really clamp down on a bait. Especially smallmouth bass. I've seen many videos of smallmouth eating crawfish (and this is true of largemouth as well) and when they suck it in, they crush it to kill it before trying to swallow it. Also, the amount of force or lack thereof, generated on hook set would astonish you. Even with braided line, the numbers are no where near what most people think.

Anyhow, there are many practical reasons for hard hook sets.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/16/2021 09:38PM by David Baylor.

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Re: Hook sets when worm fishing
Posted by: Phil Ewanicki (---)
Date: February 17, 2021 11:24AM

After many decades of chiefly fresh water fishing most of my fishing is now in saltwater. The biggest fish I caught in fresh water were carp up to thirty+ pounds and salmon up to 30 pounds. I never had to reef with all my might to set the hook, and I never broke a rod on a fish - but I did see anglers break rods by eefing with all their might on snags. Now I chiefly fish in salt water and catch Really Strong fish, some over #100. When using bait now I NEVER set the hook. I use circle hooks and make sure they are sharp. High-sticking and bouncing rods on truck tailgates are the chief cause of the broken rods I have seen, despite tales of 10 pound fish breaking rods "by themselves" in heroic feats of strength?!

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Re: Hook sets when worm fishing
Posted by: Kent Griffith (---)
Date: February 17, 2021 12:34PM

I love U.S. made Falcon rods... been using them for decades and thankfully I have never had one snap on me, but the following video haunts me! Though it is not on a hook set...

But this rod snapping opens the door to blank design which has changed over the years. This Falcon Buccu series is what is known as a thin wall blank which were a warranty nightmare to rod companies. Today, thin wall blanks are a thing of the past for this reason- too easy to break and too easy to damage. Even MudHole changed away from thin wall blanks, but they were light and sensitive but just did not hold up as well as blanks with thicker walls...

This rod snapped under load right at the apex where forces on blank are at maximum- maximum pulling (apart) force on top side of blank, and maximum compression force on bottom side of blank. This one could not handle it. I wonder why...

ADDED- I am not sure if the rod seen snapping in this video is U.S. made or Chinese made since Falcon has moved a lot of its production overseas to China and not sure if this made a difference here... all of my Falcons say made in USA and fortunately none have snapped in more than 20 years of using various Falcon rods. This guy was not so fortunate...

And I am left wondering if this guy had his drag set too tightly and if backing off on the drag might have saved this rod at least temporarily- but he landed his fish!

[youtu.be]



Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 02/17/2021 12:48PM by Kent Griffith.

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Re: Hook sets when worm fishing
Posted by: ben belote (---.zoominternet.net)
Date: February 17, 2021 08:21PM

Thanks for the replies everyone..

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Re: Hook sets when worm fishing
Posted by: Joe Vanfossen (---.net.kent.edu)
Date: February 18, 2021 09:12AM

Kent, I would be inclined to think that angler was just a victim of circumstances and the blank broke as a result of high sticking that the angler had a limited ability to control. Clearly he didn't high stick the rod intentionally, but being confined to the kayak limited his ability to lower the rod enough to prevent the eventual outcome when the fish dove under the boat. When the blank failed, it clearly had an "Ugly Stick" bend in it. The mid section of the blank couldn't carry the load and it failed. Had he rotated the rod and changed his angle of attack, loosened the drag a bit, he may have gotten the rod to load deeper and been ok.

I would think with the video and honesty the rod should get a warranty replacement with a note about high sticking, drag settings, and over-lining a rod with braid.

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Re: Hook sets when worm fishing
Posted by: ben belote (---.zoominternet.net)
Date: February 18, 2021 10:20AM

Isn,t it instintive to back off the drag once you set the hook no matter what line used?

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Re: Hook sets when worm fishing
Posted by: David Baylor (---.res6.spectrum.com)
Date: February 18, 2021 06:42PM

Personally, I rarely if ever back off my drag. I have it set so I get zero line slip on a hook set. I'm a strictly freshwater fisherman, so other than a big catfish or muskie, there aren't many fish that I am worried about stripping line from the reel. On the rare occasions when I troll I am using my bow mount trolling motor to do so. I always have the rod in my hand and am just trolling 30 yards or so until I get to another spot that I want to fish. So if I do hang up in the process, I just point the rod at where I am hung up, until I can get the boat stopped.

Every once in a while I will back off the drag if I have a big bass at the boat on light tackle, but other than that. I never touch my drags.

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Re: Hook sets when worm fishing
Posted by: Spencer Phipps (---)
Date: February 20, 2021 11:52AM

I'm with Phil, only the bass guys seem to think they need massive hooksets to move the hook far enough to catch a fish. How do the fly, noodle, steelhead side drifter and drifters ever catch a fish? When I was kid bass anglers had short rods and caught the same fish, in the same spots, on the same tackle, with mono. You'd think there would be a point of diminished returns after a while, I've found my limits with other species using specific techniques.

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Re: Hook sets when worm fishing
Posted by: Kent Griffith (---)
Date: February 20, 2021 12:18PM

Spencer Phipps Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I'm with Phil, only the bass guys seem to think
> they need massive hooksets to move the hook far
> enough to catch a fish.

I am mostly a bass fisherman, but the reason I need a more aggressive hookset is not to move the hook a distance, but to move it through rubber that is resisting it from easily sliding through all the rubber. Sometimes the rubber is so thick it actually prevents the hookset.

I like using the zoom swimming fluke and jr version because it thins down going to the tail and so there is less rubber to resist hook movement through the rubber and my hookset percentages are higher.

Locally here is a professional bass fisherman named John Bitter who owns his own bait and tackle shop. His version of the zoom fluke has a much thicker body of rubber and I have found that extra rubber is making it harder for me to get a good hookset and I end up losing more fish. John tells me to change hooks which I did to the one he said to use, but I still find the lure coming back to the boat right out of the fish's mouth showing me the hook did not move through the rubber on my hookset. This is a problem for me using his custom lures, and other thick rubber lures.

Weedless is the only lure setup I need a more aggressive hookset. With all other lures it is not a problem.

And since I still have a lot of Bitter's naked swimmers I have done 2 things to try and fix this problem. One has been to trim the extra rubber off, and the other is to turn the lure 90 degrees sideways and go through the thinnest portion of the lure.

So I now look for thinner rubber lures to use and and adjust the hookset accordingly.


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Re: Hook sets when worm fishing
Posted by: Joe Vanfossen (---.neo.res.rr.com)
Date: February 21, 2021 09:33PM

Kent, what hook size and type are you using? How long are your swim baits? Up here I fish super flukes, flukes, and super fluke jr.s on 2/0-3/0 EWG hooks rigged Tex-posed by pushing the hook through laying th point along the back of the lure and skin hooking the tip. I have no issues fishing them on drop shot rods and 6 lb mono.

You should be able to do something similar with those baits. I would use a light wire hook with a large gap, it might mean bumping up to a 4/0 or 5/0. Since you fish in Florida I would suspect that you are using slightly larger hooks than I do locally due to the larger average size of your bass.

One trick that a local bass pro by the name of Ron Yurok taught me years ago when using big thick walled flipping tubes was to cut the tube from the tentacles up about an inch or so to keep the tube from bunching up on the hook. You could stick the point of your knife in the belly of that bait and cut out a hook pocket about an inch or so long and about halfway through the plastic to help the hook slide.

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Re: Hook sets when worm fishing
Posted by: Phil Ewanicki (---)
Date: February 23, 2021 01:31PM

I have been fishing with rubber worms ever since the first Creme Worms started showing up in the mid-50's. Since then I never found it necessary to put all my 200+ pounds into the hookset of a rubber worm on a freshwater bass- although it looks cool when tournament anglers on TV do so - and shout too! However, when I miss a bass it's always a BIG one that I missed because I didn't set the hook hard enough - not because it was too small to get the hook in its mouth! [Grin]

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