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Re: Spine Confusion
Posted by: ben belote (---.zoominternet.net)
Date: January 12, 2021 01:30AM

ben belote Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> it was the lever arm effect that flipped the reel
> not the spine..lol.


Instead of running a line through the guides and loading the rod, tye to just the tip guide and load the rod..the reel will not flip..if the spine is so strong, why doesn,t the reel flip?..i,ll let you figure it out..lol.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Spine Confusion
Posted by: Tom Kirkman (Moderator)
Date: January 12, 2021 09:59AM

ben belote Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> it was the lever arm effect that flipped the reel
> not the spine..lol.


That's very true. No matter where you orient the spine, any load through the guides will turn the rod until they are pointing down towards the load. This is the whole point of the spiral wrap.

And please don't forget that the "spine" isn't along the stiffest axis - it's considered the softest (weakest) axis. Even then, it's a not a straight line; it's not a physical thing. It's an effect and it changes as you bring more or less of the rod blank into play.

........



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/12/2021 10:00AM by Tom Kirkman.

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Re: Spine Confusion
Posted by: Nick Lam (---)
Date: January 12, 2021 10:00AM

ben belote Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ben belote Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > it was the lever arm effect that flipped the
> reel
> > not the spine..lol.
>
>
> Instead of running a line through the guides and
> loading the rod, tye to just the tip guide and
> load the rod..the reel will not flip..if the spine
> is so strong, why doesn,t the reel flip?..i,ll let
> you figure it out..lol.

Ben nothing to figure out. I think you misunderstand the test I was doing. I held the tip of the rod down while using my hand to apply upward pressure on the belly of the blank to load it against a secured butt section. No guides, no line. The force of the spine would spin the blank and upright the reel. Im not telling you what I think would happen, Im telling you what did happen, and it was reproducible (only on extra heavy blanks). Plus why would the lever arm effect upright a reel on a rod thats not spiral wrapped?

Doesn't matter to me whether you believe it or not, just trying to give the guy something to think about. Read carefully and you might not have to laugh out loud as much.

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Re: Spine Confusion
Posted by: Nick Lam (---.fiber.dynamic.sonic.net)
Date: January 12, 2021 10:08AM

Tom Kirkman Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ben belote Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > it was the lever arm effect that flipped the
> reel
> > not the spine..lol.
>
>
> That's very true. No matter where you orient the
> spine, any load through the guides will turn the
> rod until they are pointing down towards the load.
> This is the whole point of the spiral wrap.
>
> And please don't forget that the "spine" isn't
> along the stiffest axis - it's considered the
> softest (weakest) axis. Even then, it's a not a
> straight line; it's not a physical thing. It's an
> effect and it changes as you bring more or less of
> the rod blank into play.
>
> ........


Tom, respectfully this was manual test load without guides or line. I understand the spiral wrap lever arm effect for stability and agree, but it wasn't a factor for this particular test.

Nick

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Re: Spine Confusion
Posted by: Tom Kirkman (Moderator)
Date: January 12, 2021 11:21AM

That's the problem - your test didn't mimic real world on the water situation when the rod is going to be loaded by a fish on a line running through guides. If you want to know what the rod is actually going to do, you have to load it with the line, through the guides, and the load on the line.

Some years ago I watched a rod building showing an old salt surf fisherman about spine via the use of a spine finder. The old salt watched and then said, "once you put guides on the rod and load it that way it's going to flip upside down." The rod builder disagreed. I suggested they put guides on the blank, run a line through it, put it back in the spine finder and see what happens. Of course, the rod rolled until the guides has spun to the bottom. I will never forget the look of dismay on the rod builder's face. Everything he thought about rod spine had been wrong.


..........

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Re: Spine Confusion
Posted by: Nick Lam (69.38.212.---)
Date: January 12, 2021 12:04PM

Tom Kirkman Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> That's the problem - your test didn't mimic real
> world on the water situation when the rod is going
> to be loaded by a fish on a line running through
> guides. If you want to know what the rod is
> actually going to do, you have to load it with the
> line, through the guides, and the load on the
> line.
>
> Some years ago I watched a rod building showing an
> old salt surf fisherman about spine via the use of
> a spine finder. The old salt watched and then
> said, "once you put guides on the rod and load it
> that way it's going to flip upside down." The rod
> builder disagreed. I suggested they put guides on
> the blank, run a line through it, put it back in
> the spine finder and see what happens. Of course,
> the rod rolled until the guides has spun to the
> bottom. I will never forget the look of dismay on
> the rod builder's face. Everything he thought
> about rod spine had been wrong.
>
>
> ..........

I’m not saying it’s going to upright a reel with line going through guides, lever arm will dominate. I’m just saying that the force is significant enough on heavy blanks that it’s worth paying attention to it. If you’re telling me that a force that strong should be ignored , respectfully I’m going to have to disagree with you on this one.

Nick

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Re: Spine Confusion
Posted by: Tom Kirkman (Moderator)
Date: January 12, 2021 01:12PM

Ignore it. Build on the straightest axis (curve up) as this will give you the most power and highest deadlift capacity. Why put the blank in its weakest orientation particularly when fighting larger, more powerful fish?

Why do people believe that putting the blank in it's strongest orientation will cause it to somehow fail more rapidly when the exact opposite is true? We have the data to prove it.

..............

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Re: Spine Confusion
Posted by: Mike Ballard (---)
Date: January 12, 2021 01:26PM

I build a lot of trolling and standup rods for charter boat use and have for many years. Some rod builders will test a blank and let it roll to the spine where it bends the easiest and think that this somehow makes it more durable or stronger. That is backwards. When you do that you are putting the thinnest section of rod blank on the bottom which is where any blank will break first. You want the thickness section on the bottom of the rod which means the spine will be somewhere else. I hear people say 'this is where the rod wants to bend' and that is also incorrect. The rod does not want to bend period. It resists bending. Yes it will bend easier in one direction because it is weaker in that direction. I want all the strength and lifting power I can get for big ocean fish.

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Re: Spine Confusion
Posted by: Rick Shaffer (69.77.100.---)
Date: January 12, 2021 03:37PM

I'm not an expert, but Is it possible experienced custom rod builders like Mr. Kirkman might even prefer the blank to bend a little, so you can place the guides on the upward slant to increase power and lift capacity as opposed to a perfectly straight blank??

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Re: Spine Confusion
Posted by: Mo Yang (---.res.spectrum.com)
Date: January 12, 2021 03:54PM

COming late to this topic. I like super lightweight ultralight blanks and cast very light lures. Assuming that the blank is straight enough on the axis I want to build, I use the spine primarily to adjust the power, albeit only slightly. So if a blank is a touch stiffer than I'd like, I build so that the guides are on the natural bend when bent. If the blank is really lightweight but I prefer a bit more power, then I build on the axis of greatest resistance to gain just that bit of extra power. That's basically all I use the spine for. I've never noticed any issues.

That said, I had an early fiberglass blank (Daiwa) from the 1980s that simply would not cast straight. To this day, I can't figure out why - the guides are aligned properly. I attribute that to some odd interaction with the spine but I really don't know. This is the only blank I have ever encountered like that.

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Re: Spine Confusion
Posted by: Tom Kirkman (Moderator)
Date: January 12, 2021 04:15PM

Rick Shaffer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I'm not an expert, but Is it possible experienced
> custom rod builders like Mr. Kirkman might even
> prefer the blank to bend a little, so you can
> place the guides on the upward slant to increase
> power and lift capacity as opposed to a perfectly
> straight blank??


As long as the stiffest axis is up, it wouldn't matter if the blank had a slight upward bend or if it was straight. Once you've got your maximum power and response, that's all you're going to get.

............

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Re: Spine Confusion
Posted by: Phil Ewanicki (---)
Date: January 12, 2021 06:57PM

Most freshwater anglers use lines testing #20 or less. It's hard to believe that ANY spine placement, anything short of brutal high sticking could result in a fresh water fish breaking a rod?

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Re: Spine Confusion
Posted by: David Baylor (---.res6.spectrum.com)
Date: January 12, 2021 07:05PM

While Phil is certainly correct about most freshwater anglers using lines testing 20# or less, many bass fisherman use lines testing 2 or even 3 times higher in breaking strength. I use 65# braided line for a couple of different techniques. And I know that a saltwater fish would turn most freshwater fish inside out if they were hooked up in a tug of war, but there are some incredibly powerful freshwater fish that would easily pop a rod without the rod being in a high stick position.

Anyone that has hooked into a 40 lb + flat head catfish can attest to that. I know I can. lol

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Re: Spine Confusion
Posted by: Tom Kirkman (Moderator)
Date: January 12, 2021 08:36PM

I'd venture that more freshwater rods are busted pulling against snags and the like than against fish.

...........

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