I
nternet gathering place for custom rod builders
  • Custom Rod Builders - This message board is provided for your use by the sponsors listed on the left side of the page. Feel free to post any question, answers or topics related in any way to custom building. When purchasing products please remember those who sponsor this board.

  • Manufacturers and Vendors - Only board sponsors are permitted and encouraged to promote and advertise products on the board. You may become a sponsor for a nominal fee. It is the sponsor fees that pay for this message board.

  • Rules - Rod building is a decent and rewarding craft. Those who participate in it are assumed to be civilized individuals who are kind and considerate in their dealings with others. Please respond to others in the same fashion in which you would like to be responded to. Registration IS NOW required in order to post. You must include your actual First and Last name and a correct email address when registering or posting. Posts which are inflammatory, insulting, or that fail to include a proper name and email address will be removed and the persons responsible will be barred from further participation.

    Registration is now required in order to post. You must include your actual First and Last name and a correct email address when registering or posting.
SPONSORS

ICRBE 2021
EXPO ON FACEBOOK
CCS Database
Int. Custom Rod Symbol
Common Cents Info
American Tackle
Anglers Rsrc - Fuji
Anglers Workshop
BatsonRainshadowALPS
BRC Rods
Banana River Rods
Cork Specialties LLC
CRB
HNL Rod Blanks–CTS
CTS New Zealand
Custom Fly Grips LLC
Decal Connection
Flex Coat Co.
Get Bit Outdoors
Hitena USA
HYDRA
Janns Netcraft
Mickels Custom Rods
Mudhole Custom Tackle
MHX Rod Blanks
North Fork Composites
ProProducts
REC Components
ReelSeatBlanks.com
Renzetti Inc.
Rod Builders Warehouse
RodHouse France
RodMaker Magazine
RodMaker Blog
Schneiders Rod Shop
SeaGuide Corp.
Struble Mfg.
Tackleworks
The Rod Room
Trondak U-40
Utmost Enterprises
VisualWRAP/VisualWEAVE
ZipCast

Pages: Previous123Next
Current Page: 2 of 3
Re: Spine Confusion
Posted by: Tom Kirkman (Moderator)
Date: January 09, 2021 06:41PM

Gary typically builds on the straightest axis, curve up, so that the weight of guides tend to bring it back to straight. This isn't the spine, however..

.................

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Spine Confusion
Posted by: Todd Andrizzi (---.slkc.qwest.net)
Date: January 09, 2021 06:43PM

Watched the video Kent...thanks. That's how I learned and have been doing rods for 10+ years. I always appreciate every body's input.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Spine Confusion
Posted by: Kent Griffith (---)
Date: January 09, 2021 06:56PM

Tom Kirkman Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Gary typically builds on the straightest axis,
> curve up, so that the weight of guides tend to
> bring it back to straight. This isn't the spine,
> however..
>

So if we just take that S word "spine" out of it, are we good to go? lol





***And for the record, I was the one who said time to grab a bag of popcorn the last time this was brought up... and I made sure to get a big enough bag to go around!

[media.tenor.com]

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Spine Confusion
Posted by: Kendall Cikanek (---)
Date: January 09, 2021 07:05PM

A level table, two dowels and a China marker are my tools for this pursuit. It takes only a couple of minutes to let the blank tell you it’s curvature. I put curve up for rods meant for typical freshwater sized fish and curve down for the big ones. This gets you the casting accuracy that Kent talks about for most rods. When the fish get big, then the same forces Kent mentioned in casting are in greater play when fighting or lifting. After you mark the hollow of the curve, you can bend and rotate the rod and see that this will be the “soft spine”. Is it a big deal?, probably not. Is two minutes worth it on a custom made rod?, I think so. Gravity is an accurate tool.ect



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 01/10/2021 09:15AM by Tom Kirkman.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Spine Confusion
Posted by: Grant Darby (172.92.68.---)
Date: January 09, 2021 08:30PM

I use 4 rods. One with guides on the side for more accurate side casting, one with the guides on top for overhand casting, one with the guides on the bottom for underhanded casting........wait.......maybe I only use 3 rods.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Spine Confusion
Posted by: Tom Kirkman (Moderator)
Date: January 09, 2021 09:00PM

The spine is almost never in line with the straightest axis of the rod.

..............

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Spine Confusion
Posted by: Phil Ewanicki (---)
Date: January 09, 2021 09:45PM

As long as nothing on the rod is loose it will cast the same way every cast. A competent caster will adjust for how (where) the rod casts. It's a "feel" thing, not a gunsight thing.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Spine Confusion
Posted by: Guy Taylor (38.128.91.---)
Date: January 09, 2021 11:01PM

Thank you for this interesting discussion. I built my first rod, a Sabre 196-7, almost 50 years ago, still have it. We set guides the opposite of Gary Loomis’ advice. Things change as we learn more. I’m looking forward to trying new stuff as I turn back to rod wrapping.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Spine Confusion
Posted by: Danny Smith (---)
Date: January 09, 2021 11:04PM

So far, I have only built 5 rods. All were built just as described by G. Loomis in Kent's previous post. His video was all I knew about the subject at the time I did my first couple of builds. After that video I just assumed this was gospel on the issue. I see no reason to build any differently since it is now part of my routine. I certainly mean no disrespect to anyone who builds differently as I am still in the Idiot stage of learning this craft.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Spine Confusion
Posted by: Kendall Cikanek (---)
Date: January 10, 2021 12:17AM

Consistency seems worth spending the two minutes it takes to find the curvature of a blank. If you have four rods sitting on a deck or in rod holders, why would you want to continually adjust your casts to each one being built on a different part of a blank’s curve. I’d rather have them all the same, or at least 180 degrees apart, if I am building them myself.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Spine Confusion
Posted by: Spencer Phipps (---)
Date: January 10, 2021 12:25AM

If you're like me I don't cast my baitcasting rods with the reel in the upright position, I roll by hand, thumb in, so I can free my wrist, I also cast from a variety of positions, not just overhead. If the guides aren't on top when I cast, or I'm don't cast with the load over the guides when I sidearm the cast then what did I gain by building on the spine? Especially when as Tom said I would have to look at any bend in the blank for the rest of eternity.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/10/2021 12:27AM by Spencer Phipps.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Spine Confusion
Posted by: David Baylor (---.res6.spectrum.com)
Date: January 10, 2021 05:37AM

There used to be a lot of smart people that thought the earth was flat. Today ..... not so many.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Spine Confusion
Posted by: Tom Kirkman (Moderator)
Date: January 10, 2021 09:16AM

Kendall Cikanek Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> A level table, two dowels and a China marker are
> my tools for this pursuit. It takes only a couple
> of minutes to let the blank tell you it’s
> curvature. I put curve up for rods meant for
> typical freshwater sized fish and curve down for
> the big ones. This gets you the casting accuracy
> that Kent talks about for most rods. When the fish
> get big, then the same forces Kent mentioned in
> casting are in greater play when fighting or
> lifting. After you mark the hollow of the curve,
> you can bend and rotate the rod and see that this
> will be the “soft spine”. Is it a big deal?,
> probably not. Is two minutes worth it on a custom
> made rod?, I think so. Gravity is an accurate
> tool.ect


........

You are reducing rod power and deadlift capacity when you put the curve down. Not good when fighting larger fish, if any fish. Theories are fine but actual test data is better. [www.rodbuilding.org]

..........

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Spine Confusion
Posted by: Robert Flowers (---)
Date: January 10, 2021 09:58AM

I prefer multiple sections in my rods. From a physics standpoint, the area of the most stiffness, perpendicular to the rod length, will resist hoop collapse best. This means that the rod blank will have more lifting power, and sensitivity. However, the tip bends into a straight line, and so isn't stressed as much as the bittiom.opposite the spine) on the top two portions. The rod will bend toward the ti[prod will not load as easily, and will not be as accurate. Also, if the rod bends easier, it will act as a shock absorber for light tippets, protecting them from breaking better.

Typically, the bottom half of the rod (closest to the reel) is where you want the power to come from. So, on a four pierce blank, i will place the guides on the stiffet axis. and on the belly for the top two sections. This gives me more fish fighting [ower toward the but, and tippet protection and better accuracy toward the tip.

If you put the correct taper and weight line on your reel, the rod will load properly on the back cast, and throw forward well do the the power of the butt sections. I built a CTS 3 weight fiberglass trout rod, and it both casts, and fishes beautifully.

I have no numbers, or empirical data to back this up. This my opinion. But fishing my Winston, with all guides positioned on the belly (my first rod build, but with high end components, and my CTS built half and half, the CTS is more fun to fish.

Casting and spinning rods are a whole different animal though I still prefer a medium fast rod over a fast rod.
whatever rod blank you use, over time, yo will develop a feel for how to best cast, fish, jig, retriev., etc.

a good friend of mine said it best. As teens, we had a cheap aluminum boat, with a 21 horse Wards tiller motor on the back. We had cheap fishing poles with Cheap Zebco, or Abu-Garcia closed reels, or even older bait cast reals that gave you the worst snarls. We caught many a bass, perch, brook trout and pike oncheap gear. And Because We were together, as best friends, we had a blast.

You can catch fish with a willow stick, and string. The reward is getting out with friends, and eating potato-fish sandwiches, fried up fresh, streamside.

Tight Lines and Frisky Fish

RJF

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Spine Confusion
Posted by: Guy Taylor (38.128.91.---)
Date: January 10, 2021 05:01PM

Reading the responses to this thread I get the idea that rod spine is of little importance to many custom rod builders. If this is the case, why is so much effort spent on teaching people how to find the spine and what to do with it? There is tons of information out there from blank manufactures, rod building supply outfits, and individuals on how to find the spine. Is all this effort wasted or is it more of a matter of,”do what makes you feel good, it really doesn’t make much difference.”

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Spine Confusion
Posted by: ben belote (---.zoominternet.net)
Date: January 10, 2021 06:01PM

Guy, it,s a lot of hot air..because if they want to sell rods they build them straight..no one buys a rod that looks crooked..

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Spine Confusion
Posted by: ben belote (---.zoominternet.net)
Date: January 10, 2021 06:17PM

ben belote Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Guy, it,s a lot of hot air..because if they want
> to sell rods they build them straight..no one buys
> a rod that looks crooked..


and if everything the on spine builders say were true, i would still build on the straightest axis because crooked guide trains make me ill..lol.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Spine Confusion
Posted by: Tom Kirkman (Moderator)
Date: January 10, 2021 07:43PM

Guy Taylor Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Reading the responses to this thread I get the
> idea that rod spine is of little importance to
> many custom rod builders. If this is the case, why
> is so much effort spent on teaching people how to
> find the spine and what to do with it? There is
> tons of information out there from blank
> manufactures, rod building supply outfits, and
> individuals on how to find the spine. Is all this
> effort wasted or is it more of a matter of,”do
> what makes you feel good, it really doesn’t make
> much difference.”


The idea that "finding the spine" is important has much to do with convincing custom rod builders that they're doing something special (they are but it doesn't concern the spine). And, there are spine finding tools that wouldn't have much market if many builders didn't bother with rod spine. The facts are that building on the effective spine does not change casting accuracy, does not prevent rod twist and does reduce deadlift capability. But there is no right nor wrong here. If there were, then people couldn't be aligning their rods in so many different ways and have all of them work just fine.

................

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Spine Confusion
Posted by: Nick Lam (---.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
Date: January 11, 2021 11:00PM

Guy Taylor Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Reading the responses to this thread I get the
> idea that rod spine is of little importance to
> many custom rod builders. If this is the case, why
> is so much effort spent on teaching people how to
> find the spine and what to do with it? There is
> tons of information out there from blank
> manufactures, rod building supply outfits, and
> individuals on how to find the spine. Is all this
> effort wasted or is it more of a matter of,”do
> what makes you feel good, it really doesn’t make
> much difference.”

It really depends on the fishery. Where I fish (west coast socal) and to me personally, the spine is really important and it serves a functional purpose in a rod. The argument against building along the spine that I've read and heard is mostly because it "doesn't help or matter." For example, the spine wont affect your cast, and building off of it won't necessarily cause failure, and building along the straightest axis looks more visually appealing.

I would consider this, though. The stronger the blank, the stronger the spine. I did a test on one of my rail rod builds and found that while manually loading the rod, the force of the spine was strong enough to flip and hold an international 30 size reel upright against the force of gravity. To me, that is a significant stabilizing factor while fighting larger fish without harness or seat. The lever arm effect with guides upright causes downward torsion, and I need every bit of force I can use to my advantage for stability while fighting fish. I wont do spiral wraps for long range fishing because the 8 or so rods I bring won't bundle well (actually a big deal) and it's harder on the deckhands on tangles. Not to mention while rail fishing, having the line under the blank is a nightmare, especially when you have to step back from the rail, move over a bow point, or let someone else fighting their own fish move under you as you move over.

For fly rods, trout rods, bass rods, spinning rods, pretty much any rod fishing less than 20# of drag, the spine may not matter, sure. I would say, however, that it also probably doesn't hurt, and for heavier rods it definitely matters to me personally.

Best of luck, and remember that the rod is a custom because it's built for you, your fishery, and your application. Take all the good information you can find, then make the decision that is best for you.

Nick

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Spine Confusion
Posted by: ben belote (---.zoominternet.net)
Date: January 12, 2021 01:14AM

it was the lever arm effect that flipped the reel not the spine..lol.

Options: ReplyQuote
Pages: Previous123Next
Current Page: 2 of 3


Sorry, only registered users may post in this forum.
Webmaster