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NGC VS KR Concept
Posted by: Mark Talmo (71.147.59.---)
Date: August 23, 2019 12:46AM

What really is the difference between NGC and KR Concept? For that matter, why is NGC even needed or considered after the advent of the KR Concept? To me, NGC is nothing more than a half-way point between COF and KR Concept; a profound improvement over COF yet not exploiting all the rapid-choke benefits of KR Concept. While obviously more profound with spinning rods, casting rods benefits equally as well with rapid choke, even without resorting to Rich Forhan’s stripping guide size equaling that of the level-wind reel’s guide. Fuji has proven it is all about controlling the line quickly and allowing it to pass through the remaining guides in a straight path.
I have incorporated the benefits of the rapid-choke/KR Concept to numerous saltwater casting rods employing KWs and even LCs with awesome results. While I am certainly aware of the high-frame-small diameter-ring quantities of the KR Concept guides, should those guides be restricted to only KL-H, RV, KB and KL? What am I missing? Jim? Norman?

Mark Talmo
FISHING IS NOT AN ESCAPE FROM LIFE BUT RATHER A DEEPER IMMERSION INTO IT!!!

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Re: NGC VS KR Concept
Posted by: Lance Schreckenbach (200.72.243.---)
Date: August 23, 2019 09:03AM

I believe it is the idea of a new way to look at guides and placement that include the KR concept. FUJI: The “Concept Guide System™”, referred to as the ”New Guide Concept” (or NGC) changed the way many rods were built, and led to a host of information that resulted in not only a wide variety of Fuji® Concept Guides, but also to the development of Fuji’s new “K-Series” guides, and most recently the evolution of the NGC into a further refined ”KR Micro Concept”. I am not Norman or Jim but I have found any guide with the correct height and ring sizes will work, the only restriction is the builder.

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Re: NGC VS KR Concept
Posted by: Jim Ising (---.dthn.centurylink.net)
Date: August 23, 2019 11:03AM

Mark, take a moment to mentally toss out all the names and designations for any given guide. Start with a "blank" slate, no reference material and a pile of "no name. no designation" guides. The assignment is to combine the guides any way you want in order to produce the smoothest, longest casting rod that will still manage a hooked fish. I think you will quickly find out that your final selection has everything to do with the reel and line you started with. The "best" choices are infinitely variable.

Considering the global variety of rods people build for thousands of fish species and circumstances, it becomes pretty obvious that most of us build in a very narrow window based on the species and geography around us. Logically, that tends to lead us to conclusions about the "best" way to accomplish the goal. Fuji, on the other hand, MUST think globally to survive. The technology is evolving - no question about it. But the result is never a single magic set-up that answers "the question", it's a wider and wider selection that addresses a narrower set of needs.

For example, we published the parameters of the KR Concept in the beginning and made it clear that KR was a "braided line" concept (per Fuji). The strategy was that Fuji would then have a mono/fluor NGC and a braided line KR. Neat and clean. And, oddly enough, still pretty darn accurate. The point is - BRAID DROVE THE DEVELOPMENT OF KR, not micro guides. Everything good about KR is it's ability to handle limp, small diameter braided line (or very small, very limp mono/fluor). It immediately falls short at a threshold where line stiffness (mono/fluor) and spool size overcome the advantages. However, it's important to remember, both concepts are about the EXACT same thing: "controlling line quickly and allowing it to pass through the remaining guides in a straight path".

So let's go back to the original pile of guides with no name and no designation. Once you filter through all the guides and painstakingly construct, through sheer trial and error, the most efficient combination for a PARTICULAR set of circumstances (line, spool/reel size, purpose)...you will most likely have an NGC or a KR set up pretty much as Fuji has described. Names, groups and concepts are simply ways to get you there faster.

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Re: NGC VS KR Concept
Posted by: Tom Kirkman (Moderator)
Date: August 23, 2019 11:54AM

Jim is 100% correct - the best guide set up for any outfit has less to do with the rod and more to do with the reel and line used.

..........

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Re: NGC VS KR Concept
Posted by: Norman Miller (---.sub-174-235-130.myvzw.com)
Date: August 23, 2019 12:59PM

Jim has been explaining both the NGC and KR concept for quite awhile. Almost everything you read on-line about these two guide concepts, that actually make sense, have been written by Jim. I initially learned how to set up the KR concept from one of his articles written shortly after the KR concept came to the US. I have been using braid for a very long time, and played around with Match guides almost 40 yrs ago. So when the KR concept was explained it made complete sense to me and I never looked back. Over the recent years I have experimented quite a bit with the KR concept layouts, and even went in and tried to figure out how the KR GPS worked. Many probably don’t know that Jim was intimately involved the putting the GPS programs together.
As Jim mentioned, both the NGC and KR concepts are all about line control. They both control the line coils coming from the reel and choke them down so they run smoothly through the running guides. This line control is dependent upon the height of the striper and the reduction guides. Once the line is controlled and choked runner size is not that important. The KR concept was developed as a braid modification of the NGC. Because braid is thinner and limper then mono or fluorocarbon, high frame small ring reduction guides were found to effectively control line coils and that these coils could be choked faster, allowing the choke point to be moved closer to the reel, hence the term rapid choke. The KR concept also allowed for smaller micro guides to be used. For stiffer and thicker line, a larger ringed stripper and reduction guides works better for controlling and choking the line coils.
So basically both concepts have their place. In my opinion, when using braid, the KR concept is a real performance enhancer.
I should also mention that although most companies make NGC guides, and several companies are now making KR-like guides, none explain the theory behind them or how to use them. Fuji is the only company to do the required research for explaining how to use their guides. Think of what it would be like if these guides were thrown on the market without any explanation on how to use them.
Norm

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Re: NGC VS KR Concept
Posted by: Mark Talmo (71.147.59.---)
Date: August 23, 2019 02:13PM

Allow me to extend a gracious thank you to Lance and Tom for your input and insight and especially to Jim and Norman for your in-depth explanation; I now understand. While I have heard that braid works very well with the KR Concept, I did not realize the KR Concept was actually design for braid (or very limp, lighter test mono or fluorocarbon). Basically, I spin with 2-4lb mono/fuoro for freshwater trout and cast with 50-80lb braid in the salt. The KR Concept employed on my trout rod builds allows me to cast considerably farther than I have ever experienced with any store-bought rods using the same reels. Fuji’s commitment to R&D to not only produce the highest quality products but entire concepts as well is unparalleled. Hence, Fuji is my go-to manufacturer!

Mark Talmo
FISHING IS NOT AN ESCAPE FROM LIFE BUT RATHER A DEEPER IMMERSION INTO IT!!!

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Re: NGC VS KR Concept
Posted by: Jim Ising (---.dthn.centurylink.net)
Date: August 23, 2019 05:40PM

You're welcome. Never hurts to "review'.

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Re: NGC VS KR Concept
Posted by: Lynn Behler (---.97.252.156.res-cmts.leh.ptd.net)
Date: August 24, 2019 08:21PM

Me too. (go to)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/25/2019 04:13PM by Lynn Behler.

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