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Solvent Based Color Preserver
Posted by: Tom Harder (---.hsd1.mn.comcast.net)
Date: February 10, 2019 05:57PM

Hello All, I hope your winter is going well. Here in Minnesota we just came out of a -20 below snap of fun and games!

Anyway, have any of you found a solvent based color preserver that you like? Why is it that we had really great color preservers in the 70's and now it appears they're all water based and most people are not happy with them. I just ordered some of Al's Silk Color Rite. I know it works on Silk but I'm going to see how it works on Nylon and Madeira.

Might any of you be aware of any industrial coatings that are solvent based Acrylic? Then there's Midwest Products Aero Gloss. It is solvent based but it looks to require something akin to 6 coats to actually do its job. I bought some and that too is on it's way. Right now I think I've got 4 different brands of water based CP, all of which I really dislike. I have Cason's and it has worked well for me but I'm concerned about it sealing more intricate thread work. There's no way epoxy is getting through water based coatings to the blank so I trust the strength very little. I especially dislike like that its a complete coating.

Any other ideas? I'm sure there's a solvent based acrylic concrete sealer that would work really well.

Anyone?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/10/2019 05:58PM by Tom Kirkman.

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Re: Solvent Based Color Preserver
Posted by: Tom Kirkman (Moderator)
Date: February 10, 2019 05:59PM

Epoxy does not need to penetrate thread wraps in order to have a strong wrap. The thread is your strength. Epoxy then protects the thread.

...............

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Re: Solvent Based Color Preserver
Posted by: Michael Danek (---.drr02.mskg.mi.frontiernet.net)
Date: February 10, 2019 06:16PM

I have to ask, since all the epoxy does is protect the thread, and the thread is the strength, it follows that an undamaged thread wrap with no epoxy will be as resistant to a single pull on a guide as one covered with epoxy? It seems like this would indicate that we couldn't slightly realign guides before the wrap was coated any more than we could after they were coated. What am I missing?

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Re: Solvent Based Color Preserver
Posted by: Billy Vivona (---.nycmny.fios.verizon.net)
Date: February 10, 2019 06:25PM

Who are these most people that are unhappy with the current CP's?

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Re: Solvent Based Color Preserver
Posted by: Phil Erickson (---.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net)
Date: February 10, 2019 07:15PM

No Michael, it does not follow! Before epoxy the thread are not adhered to each other as they are after. Thus as you move the guide before the individual threads can shift, not so after.

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Re: Solvent Based Color Preserver
Posted by: Tom Kirkman (Moderator)
Date: February 10, 2019 08:45PM

Anything, including CP, that fills the tunnel will tend to stop the guide from shifting side to side.

But guides under wraps coated with CP aren't falling off or being pulled from rods. Using CP does not create a weak wrap.

................

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Re: Solvent Based Color Preserver
Posted by: Dennis Danku (---.dyn.optonline.net)
Date: February 10, 2019 10:30PM

Try Finish Floor Sealer/Wax as a color preserver.

Dennis J. Danku
(Sayreville,NJ)

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Re: Solvent Based Color Preserver
Posted by: roger wilson (---.hsd1.mn.comcast.net)
Date: February 10, 2019 11:14PM

I don't use color preserver, nor do I use NCP thread.

I like the transparent look that one gets with nylon thread and epoxy finish.

The color will darken with the coating, therefore, knowing that it will darken, choose the color that you want when it has been coated.

Be safe

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Re: Solvent Based Color Preserver
Posted by: Michael Danek (---.drr02.mskg.mi.frontiernet.net)
Date: February 11, 2019 08:22AM

Phil, I know that. But the statement I'm questioning states that all the epoxy does is protect the thread. I submit it does a lot more, like you indicate with the shifting comment. Sort of analogous to plywood, in a way. The two components together yield a structure "stronger" than both.

I appreciate what Roger is doing, and some very interesting colors result. But I don't think one can get really bright colors without using CP or NCP thread. At least I've never seen it.

Billy is right, current CP's, especially water based, work just fine. I don't understand why anyone would be using materials not specifically designed for rod building as a CP.

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Re: Solvent Based Color Preserver
Posted by: herb canter (---.atmc.net)
Date: February 11, 2019 10:21AM

I have to agree with Michael on this one at least in regards to Threadmaster finish , that stuff is like liquid steel and once dried you would need vise grips to pull a guide off the blank so i view it as far more than just a protectant . Unless you wrapped with extreme tension i can't see guides just wrapped with thread and nothing else to be anywhere close to as strong as they become with a coating of Threadmaster , just my opinion of course.

I never use CP so can't comment on that, however, those that have used CP have said that if they have to remove a guide for some reason the ones that use CP are much easier to remove which i would think has to do with the finish not being able to penetrate as well as wraps that use no CP . I base that on Tom's comment above about finish still being plenty strong without needing to penetrate wraps where CP is applied.

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Re: Solvent Based Color Preserver
Posted by: Tom Kirkman (Moderator)
Date: February 11, 2019 12:53PM

Take guide, wrap it to the blank, put a good, wet application of CP on it, follow it with epoxy. When cured, try to pull it off the rod. You'll have to use pliers and you'll deform/break the guide or blank before you'll get it off. But anyone that feels that CP creates an inherently weak wrap needs to try this to put their mind at ease.

..............

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Re: Solvent Based Color Preserver
Posted by: Tom Harder (---.hsd1.mn.comcast.net)
Date: February 11, 2019 02:57PM

Lol... That's true Tom. Yes, but you had me laughing on that one!

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Re: Solvent Based Color Preserver
Posted by: Tom Harder (---.hsd1.mn.comcast.net)
Date: February 11, 2019 02:58PM

Oops - can mistaken posts be deleted?



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 02/11/2019 03:04PM by Tom Harder.

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Re: Solvent Based Color Preserver
Posted by: Tom Harder (---.hsd1.mn.comcast.net)
Date: February 11, 2019 03:25PM

Okay, to address some comments. First, thanks for your comments guys. Billy, if you do a search on Color Preservers you get a ton of unhappy users. Now, does that include water based CP, I don't recall. Especially with Madeira thread. I'm wondering weather the Al's Color Rite works on Nylon, anyone? As for what color preservers do, yes they soak into the thread but in order to create an effective barrier it creates a film preventing penetration of anything, including epoxy.

My ideal color preserver would soak the threads and lock the color, but would also allow the epoxy to penetrate and allow adhesion to the blank. Isn't that exactly what happens when we don't use color preserver? If this is true then there is definitely a difference in the strength of the entire assembly. Just like in Fiberglass boat construction, the epoxy resin (or polyester/vinylester resins) works along with the glass to create the strength that makes up our fiberglass boats. Put something in the center of the layers that is dissimilar and delamination is almost guaranteed. As Tom points out, is it necessary? His example makes clear, it is not.

Still, I wish we had the old solvent based color preservers available to us. I really liked them. Anyone here try the Midwest Aero Gloss? I've read several threads on other boards that have tested it and have found it effective.

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Re: Solvent Based Color Preserver
Posted by: ben belote (---.zoominternet.net)
Date: February 11, 2019 04:06PM

hi Tom..what difference does it make whether it,s water or a solvent..they both evaporate and leave a barrier..educate me..

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Re: Solvent Based Color Preserver
Posted by: ben belote (---.zoominternet.net)
Date: February 11, 2019 04:48PM

actually water is a solvent also..some people call it the "international solvent"... not beer..lol.

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Re: Solvent Based Color Preserver
Posted by: Michael Danek (---.drr02.mskg.mi.frontiernet.net)
Date: February 11, 2019 05:26PM

Regarding Madeira thread , they make a rayon that just does not hold its color with Flex Coat CP. It could be that some, like I, tried that thinking it might work as well as their Polyneon. It does not.

The only trouble I've ever had with CP was with a solvent based CP, which seemed to need multiple coats to do its job.

You got it right, Herb.

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Re: Solvent Based Color Preserver
Posted by: Tom Harder (---.hsd1.mn.comcast.net)
Date: February 11, 2019 06:37PM

Ben, I'm not trying to educate anyone. In fact, I'm trying to be educated. But, I'll say this, I do tons of other work (which I'm sure many of you do as well) from working with Marble and granite, to cement to stucco to wood finishes and I feel that solvent based products are more often quite superior to water based products. Water based products were not created on performance, they were a "green" product. In parallel, I'm really thinking of Acrylic based Granite sealer. It leaves nothing detectable behind yet it protects the stone for years. It would seem to me that an acrylic base, carried by a solvent that completely evaporates (yes, water is a solvent too) could be created to work the same way with thread. Saturate it, without creating a thick coat, and sealing the filaments of the thread only, allowing the epoxy to fissure through making the bond all the way to the substrate. I guess I'm just expecting too much.

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Re: Solvent Based Color Preserver
Posted by: Billy Vivona (---.nycmny.fios.verizon.net)
Date: February 11, 2019 07:21PM

The problem with MAdeira isn't the CP, or the thread - its' how the people apply it improperly. No matter what you use, people will hack it up. THey blame everything except the actual problem, themselves. CP doesnt' decide to work sometimes and not others, there are no bad batches. Chromaseal does the best job of retaining colors and keeping MAdeira bright. I've tested them all and posted the results in the photo page like 12 years ago.

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Re: Solvent Based Color Preserver
Posted by: ben belote (---.zoominternet.net)
Date: February 11, 2019 07:51PM

Tom..from what little knowledge i have of cp you do not want the epoxy to get down into the fibers because you loose the color retention..i think it,s called wetting...cp forms a barrier to prevent this wetting of the thread by the epoxy..

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