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Re: Solvent Based Color Preserver
Posted by: Michael Danek (---.drr02.mskg.mi.frontiernet.net)
Date: February 11, 2019 10:49PM

Billy, are you sure you're including Madeira rayon in your comment? My experience with it was so clearly an issue that I don't know how I could screw it up that much even if i tried. It was a green I was trying to match with the Rodgeeks metallic green, and it changed color to an ugly very dark green with a water based CP and never changed as it dried. How could I have handled it differently?

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Re: Solvent Based Color Preserver
Posted by: Billy Vivona (---.nycmny.fios.verizon.net)
Date: February 11, 2019 11:19PM

nobody is supposed to use rayon

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Re: Solvent Based Color Preserver
Posted by: Michael Danek (---.drr02.mskg.mi.frontiernet.net)
Date: February 12, 2019 09:16AM

Thanks, Billy. I missed the bulletin. I know now.

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Re: Solvent Based Color Preserver
Posted by: Billy Vivona (---.nycmny.fios.verizon.net)
Date: February 12, 2019 11:55AM

[www.rodbuilding.org]

lol, 17 pages of Rayon in the search: [www.rodbuilding.org]

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Re: Solvent Based Color Preserver
Posted by: Tom Harder (---.hsd1.mn.comcast.net)
Date: February 12, 2019 01:43PM

I've never had a color preserver fail, nor have I had any kind of separation in 43 years of rod building. That's probably over 800 rods. As for users making errors, I'll do a search on that to see what those errors are. I guess I'm just concerned that, when I least expect it, I'll have a failure, that's all. If I know what not to do, then I protect my work from having to cut it off and doing it all over again. Right now I have the following CPs, Cason Crystal Clear 1 (solvent based), RodDancer Chromaseal, Acid Rod Acrylic, U-40 Color Lock and Flex Coat Color Preserver. I've used them all and they've all worked well for me. My preference is the Cason's because it is crystal clear from start to finish. I'm fairly new with Madeira thread (which is the cause of my consternation) and I've only used the Chromaseal on it so far, based on my reading here. But, I'd like to use Cason's on it and I'm fearful of the results.

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Re: Solvent Based Color Preserver
Posted by: Michael Danek (---.drr02.mskg.mi.frontiernet.net)
Date: February 12, 2019 01:56PM

Sounds like Cason's should work on Madeira Polymneon. If others work Cason's should work. Don't recoat with 2nd coat until overnight drying of 1st, based on my experience.

If it's worth saying 17 times, it's worth saying it again. Don't use rayon.

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Re: Solvent Based Color Preserver
Posted by: Tom Harder (---.hsd1.mn.comcast.net)
Date: February 12, 2019 02:04PM

Thanks Mike, I think you're right. It appears that adequate drying time is at the heart of CP failures. That would especially apply to Cason's given it uses a solvent carrier.

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Re: Solvent Based Color Preserver
Posted by: herb canter (---.atmc.net)
Date: February 12, 2019 02:31PM

So there has never been a case of CP failing in 43 years of building and thats over 800 rods , but all of a sudden there is extreme fear of CP failing and you're concerned about it . It would seem to me to stick with what has worked for 43 + years and over 800 rods . Anytime you switch to something else there will be risk but if it's a necessary switch than tackle it head on . Constant fear does absolutely nothing to help you , do what Michael recommends above so you have someone to direct your outrage to if it doesn't work out.

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Re: Solvent Based Color Preserver
Posted by: Tom Harder (---.hsd1.mn.comcast.net)
Date: February 12, 2019 03:45PM

As I said, I'm fairly new to Madeira thread. That's my biggest concern, not regular Nylon or Silk. You're right, I keep doing what I've done but, over 43 years everything has changed drastically. In fact, in the last 3 years I've changed how I do everything. From wrapping techniques (completely new thread carriage) to finish application. I learn a lot in searches on here from you guys. Also, a ton from Tom Kirkman's magazine (RodMaker). So, I'm not concerned without cause. All of the components are completely different than they were even 10 years ago. I mean Gudebrod is out of business. Isn't Pearsall Gossamer as well? Add to that the silicone issue with Madeira. I have a ton of work coming up and I don't want to screw up...so I read and learn. Outrage? (Lol) That would do me little good. You just start over. I've cut my share of guide thread off by trimming too close, or for trim to unravel, though irritating you just start over. Although, I'm sure I'd feel differently after a 3 hour butt wrap. So, yeah, I get your meaning.

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Re: Solvent Based Color Preserver
Posted by: Billy Vivona (---.nycmny.fios.verizon.net)
Date: February 12, 2019 03:53PM

I sell tons of MAdeira and 90% of the guys doing the top notch DEcorative Wraps you see The NERBs doing is with Chromaseal. The only issues people have is when they apply too much or too little. YOu're overthinking something that we do every day and making an issue out of nothing. IF you want to try something else, by all means do, I've tinkered with so many different products to use as a CP. Bt Chromaseal does teh best job of retaining the colors compared to everything.

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Re: Solvent Based Color Preserver
Posted by: Tom Harder (---.hsd1.mn.comcast.net)
Date: February 12, 2019 04:07PM

Okay, thanks Billy, I'll just stick with Chromaseal. You just gave me a good piece of advice in making sure I don't use too much. How many coats do you put on Madeira thread? Two? (that's what I've been doing) You're right though, I'm overthinking it. I am going to try the Cason's on an ice rod I'm building and see how it does. Did you know (I'm sure you did) the silicone is even on their metallics? Boy, their metallics suck to work with. Anyway, thanks for the input.

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Re: Solvent Based Color Preserver
Posted by: herb canter (---.atmc.net)
Date: February 12, 2019 04:41PM

Tom Harder:

" Over 43 years everything has changed drastically. In fact, in the last 3 years I've changed how I do everything. From wrapping techniques (completely new thread carriage) to finish application"

"All of the components are completely different than they were even 10 years ago"




Forgive me Tom, i don't mean to come across critical i just didn't understand how somebody with 43 years of experience wrapping rods suddenly has to change everything thats all . Anyways, i sincerely hope you figure it out .

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Re: Solvent Based Color Preserver
Posted by: Tom Kirkman (Moderator)
Date: February 12, 2019 06:27PM

ben belote Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Tom..from what little knowledge i have of cp you
> do not want the epoxy to get down into the fibers
> because you loose the color retention..i think
> it,s called wetting...cp forms a barrier to
> prevent this wetting of the thread by the epoxy..

Yes, that's the point. And the epoxy doesn't need to get down into or beyond the thread. Just encapsulate it.

There are so many options, and all work fine depending on the look you're trying to achieve. But you have to "think" about what you're doing. If you put size A yellow thread on a black blank, you are going to have to pack it well and do a good job with the CP. Even then, you may lose a shade due to the very light thread on top of the very dark blank. Think about what is going where and how best to achieve what you're after. In some cases you may have to fall back on NCP, or change colors.

Anything that seals the thread to retain color is also, by its very nature, going to stop epoxy from penetrating it. You can have either-or, but not both.

..............



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/12/2019 06:30PM by Tom Kirkman.

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Re: Solvent Based Color Preserver
Posted by: Tom Harder (---.hsd1.mn.comcast.net)
Date: February 12, 2019 07:25PM

Herb, I don't take that as critical. See the first 35 years I had a different career. I sold my business and semi retired. I'm now 61 years old. Now, I'm trying to make a going concern of the hobby that I loved so much. That's what changed. It's one thing when you're making rods for friends and to sell when you're approached, it's quite another thing when you're trying to economize everything you do so you're not making $2 an hour. Then I'd rather not even do it. There's measurable benefit in telling people, "no, I don't have time". So, this is about proficiency for me...at least this discussion is and others I've read about numerous other topics here.

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Re: Solvent Based Color Preserver
Posted by: herb canter (---.atmc.net)
Date: February 12, 2019 08:52PM

Oh i see , now i understand , makes perfect sense . Anyways, i wish you much success & i hope the wraps turn out better than you expected .

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Re: Solvent Based Color Preserver
Posted by: Spencer Phipps (---.hsd1.or.comcast.net)
Date: February 12, 2019 09:41PM

Tom,
Al's Color-Rite works on everything, is just seems to work best of all the CPs I've tried on silk. You have a much less chance for blotches, light/dark spots on your wraps.

.
,

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Re: Solvent Based Color Preserver
Posted by: Tom Harder (---.hsd1.mn.comcast.net)
Date: February 12, 2019 09:48PM

Well thank you Herb. Spencer, thanks, I appreciate that information. And Tom, excellent information, makes perfect sense. Thank you!



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 02/13/2019 01:11AM by Tom Harder.

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Re: Solvent Based Color Preserver
Posted by: Tom Harder (---.hsd1.mn.comcast.net)
Date: February 13, 2019 12:01PM

Say, one more question you guys. Have any of you used the anti-silicone additives when you epoxy over Madeira to prevent fisheyes? Or, is a strand of Madeira thread enough to eliminate fisheyes?

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Re: Solvent Based Color Preserver
Posted by: Billy Vivona (---.nycmny.fios.verizon.net)
Date: February 13, 2019 05:49PM

I've done 500 wraps and I never overthought doing that

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Re: Solvent Based Color Preserver
Posted by: ben belote (---.zoominternet.net)
Date: February 13, 2019 08:10PM

well..you,ll just have to do 500 more..lol.

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