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Bizarre guide spacing on Steez XT spinning rod: what to do?
Posted by: Lance Becker (---)
Date: September 07, 2018 11:10PM

15 1/4 inches between guides?

I just received a 70MLFS rod with KL-H Fuji titanium-frame guides. It has two fewer guides than the 10 (plus tip top) that Fuji recommends for a rod this length. The 25 mm. guide's foot bend is 15 1/4 inches from that of the next guide on the rod (12 mm.). I have never seen that much space between guides on a freshwater rod priced above $50. I seek advice on whether this is a negligible oddity or a serious problem.

Seems to me that line oscillation, line sag, and lateral blowing of line in a wind could reduce casting distance with guides that far apart. (The 25 mm. guide also seems far from the reel seat; I measure 21 7/8" from the bottom lip of a reel I would use on it to the bottom of the 25 mm. guide.)

Not so worried about stress on the blank from the large space between the guides; the rod is a lot stiffer there and I would use mostly 6 lb. test fluoro or 10 lb. test braid with this rod.

I'm not an experienced rodbuilder, but I've replaced some guides before.

I haven't fished the rod; I don't know whether I'll return it (I bought it for half price, new) or buy additional guides and rewrap it. Advice?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/07/2018 11:12PM by Lance Becker.

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Re: Bizarre guide spacing on Steez XT spinning rod: what to do?
Posted by: herb canter (70.40.98.---)
Date: September 07, 2018 11:21PM

Did you put in the calculations with the Fuji GPS below ? Do the measurements and see how it pans out. The distance of 21 7/8 " sounds accurate as far as the reel spool to the first guide , my two KR inshore rod's are right around the same .
[anglersresource.net]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/07/2018 11:28PM by herb canter.

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Re: Bizarre guide spacing on Steez XT spinning rod: what to do?
Posted by: Matthew Paul (---.lightspeed.milwwi.sbcglobal.net)
Date: September 07, 2018 11:21PM

before you do any thing do a test cast with both lines and then you have a better idea if it works well just as it is or if it need be re done

The best day to be alive is always tomorrow !!
Think out side the box when all else fails !!!
Wi.

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Re: Bizarre guide spacing on Steez XT spinning rod: what to do?
Posted by: herb canter (70.40.98.---)
Date: September 07, 2018 11:33PM

The problem with using such light lines for test casting is that even on poorly set up rods lines that light will still perform admirably , i always test cast with lines heavier than i use for fishing . Twenty pound braid would reveal issues that are easier to detect than 10 pound braid in my experience.

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Re: Bizarre guide spacing on Steez XT spinning rod: what to do?
Posted by: Norman Miller (---)
Date: September 08, 2018 12:27AM

You are right it is not set up correctly for a 7’ ML KR rod. The entire reduction train should only be about 21”. The stripper would be at about 20” from the reel spool, and the choke guide would be at about 21” in front of the stripper, with the other two reduction guides spaced between them. So 15 1/4” is extreme for the distance from stripper to the second reduction guide, more like the distance from the stripper to the third reduction guide. I also feel that KL25H is larger than you need on ML rod. This is a problem with a factory rod, you have no control over how it’s built. I cannot believe that this kR guide set up is normal for the Diana Steez spin rods. If it is they do not understand the Fuji KR concept. It May be a second and the reason you got it at half price, which still a lot of money for something that’s not set up properly. If I were redoing this rod I would use KL20H, KL10H, and KL5.5M reduction guides followed by six size 5 or 4.5 KB/KT runners. If I were not a rod builder, I would check to see if the rod is a mistake and exchange it for one done correctly.
Norm

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Re: Bizarre guide spacing on Steez XT spinning rod: what to do?
Posted by: roger wilson (---)
Date: September 08, 2018 02:19AM

Lance,
I see that you have just purchased the rod.

Absolutely, before you make any changes in the rod, take the rod and go out and catch 500 fish. After you catch 500 fish on the rod, then make the decision as to whether any changes are required.


It is not at all unusual to have guides that far apart on some rods. Unless there is a big reason to change something, I would leave it alone and let the person go catch some fish with the rod.

Basically, you only need a guide where the rod bends. If there is no bend in the rod there is not a lot of reason to have a guide on the rod. So, if this spacing is on a stiffer section of the blank that bends very little under normal conditions, I might guess that the rod would cast very well and do an excellent job of catching fish.

Just because the guides are set up differently what may be the "norm" does not necessarily make the rod bad or even have a problem.

Sounds like it could be an excellent rod. Go and and use it in real life fishing situations and then come to your conclusion. Do not do test casting and go out and change a perfectly good rod.
Rather, go use it for a few weeks of fishing so that you will be in a position to make a judgment on whether the rod is a good, bad or so so rod.

Good luck

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Re: Bizarre guide spacing on Steez XT spinning rod: what to do?
Posted by: Michael Danek (---.drr02.mskg.mi.frontiernet.net)
Date: September 08, 2018 06:58AM

I agree 100% with Roger and will add that I must have missed recommendations for 10 guides on a 7 foot rod. The rod specs sound like it's designed for something like 20 pound braid and most likely will work fine. It certainly will work fine with light braid, as mentioned by Herb.

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Re: Bizarre guide spacing on Steez XT spinning rod: what to do?
Posted by: David Miller (---.dyn6.twc.com)
Date: September 08, 2018 08:30AM

I think the mass produced rod companies has to use a guide setup that works for a huge range of conditions.Fishing line manufactures lb rating and diiameters is all over place, such as a 14lb fireline is more like someone else’s 20lb braid. Then spinning reel diameter sizes between manufacturers is different as well. Much different than a custom rod builder that can build a rod specifically for someone using Daiwa J braid in 15 lb with a size 3000 Shimano diameter spinning reel.

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Re: Bizarre guide spacing on Steez XT spinning rod: what to do?
Posted by: Norman Miller (---.lightspeed.jcsnms.sbcglobal.net)
Date: September 08, 2018 08:33AM

It's not the way Norm does it, it the way it should be done according to the KR concept. If it is not set up properly then it is not a KR concept rod. The rod he listed is a medium light rod listed for up to 10# test line and up to a 1/4 oz lure at a list price of $550. F you are buying a KR rod then buy a KR rod. I did not invent the KR concept Fuji did, and in my opinion it is a great concept when done right. This rod is obviously not done right. I do not agree with either Roger or Micheal to suck it up and use a rod not properly set up.. Maybe that's just me, and want things done right,.
Norm

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Re: Bizarre guide spacing on Steez XT spinning rod: what to do?
Posted by: Michael Danek (---.drr02.mskg.mi.frontiernet.net)
Date: September 08, 2018 10:05AM

The easiest solution is obviously to return the rod and start over. For $550 one can get a pretty nice custom made rod. I didn't realize how expensive it was.

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Re: Bizarre guide spacing on Steez XT spinning rod: what to do?
Posted by: Spencer Phipps (---)
Date: September 08, 2018 10:55AM

Lance,
This has been going on for decades, since Fuji first came out with the New Concept System and then the Concept guides. The rod manufactures advertised and used the guides, but not the system that made the whole thing viable. Otherwise, you could use just about any guide design and get the same results.

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Re: Bizarre guide spacing on Steez XT spinning rod: what to do?
Posted by: David Miller (---.dyn6.twc.com)
Date: September 08, 2018 11:59AM

10 lb test mono or fluorocarbon is much different than someone using 10 braid . I didn’t see any of those rods selling for $550, I agree if they were I would much rather get a North Fork X Ray or Point Blank custom built exactly to your usage.

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Re: Bizarre guide spacing on Steez XT spinning rod: what to do?
Posted by: Lance Becker (---.dc.dc.cox.net)
Date: September 08, 2018 03:24PM

Thanks to all who have posted so far, whichever position you have taken. I am learning things!

I spoke today to a salesman of the company I bought the rod from. He was familiar with the rod's odd guide spacing and sympathetic with my concerns. He said I could try the rod out on the water and see how I liked it, and still return it if it wouldn't work for me. I appreciate that!

Just to clear some things up: the XT (slightly lower-end) version of the Steez spinning rod retails for $299--more than I've ever paid for a rod--and I ordered it for a bit more than half that price on Labor Day. So if I am otherwise impressed with the rod's performance, it will probably be worth it to rework the guide setup if on-the-water use shows a need for it. Right now, the first four guides up from the reel span a distance of 32 1/8"; that includes the last elevated guide before the running guides. (I think you call that the choke guide.) Daiwa's specs call for this rod to have 9 guides, which I thought did not include the tip top; apparently I was wrong.

Herb, you thoughtfully furnished a link to the Fuji GPS calculator (of which I was unaware) and asked how the rod's guide positions compare. Not even close. I was curious and played with some input variations on the calculator with other rods in mind. I was stunned that it recommended a size 16 stripper guide for someone planning to use 8-10 lb. mono line on a 3000 size spinning reel. I'd figure on a 25 stripper for that. Would anyone here use a 16 stripper for .012" (typical 10 lb. test) mono? And I see that the calculator doesn't have a 2500 reel size option. Did the calculator drop that when Daiwa changed its spool size designations (old 2500 size now 3000)?

I'll follow this thread for any more comments. Again, thanks for so many quick replies you've all given to help me out.

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Re: Bizarre guide spacing on Steez XT spinning rod: what to do?
Posted by: roger wilson (---)
Date: September 08, 2018 03:32PM

Lance,
Stop worrying about the rod.

Go fishing and report back on how many fish that you have caught with your new rod.

Who knows, maybe you can set up a new guide system that works better than anything else out there.

But, unless you use the rod to fish with, you will never know for sure.

Good luck

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Re: Bizarre guide spacing on Steez XT spinning rod: what to do?
Posted by: Michael Danek (---.drr02.mskg.mi.frontiernet.net)
Date: September 08, 2018 04:31PM

I have heard so many strange things about GPS, and have seen a few when I used to consult it, that I don't even open it any more. I use the guide groupings in the Anglers Resource catalog and there a 16 would be recommended for 10 pound braid, not mono. Use the running guide group for the type of rod (and line) , choose the runner size (all the same size) . I wont go into the rest of the process, but my point is, GPS, IMHO, is suspect. Also, I believe reel details don't have nearly as much importance as most builders believe.

Since the rod is not a $500 + investment, and since the company will allow return after trying it, what is there to lose by trying it? At least it will be a learning experience, finding out how that layout works.

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Re: Bizarre guide spacing on Steez XT spinning rod: what to do?
Posted by: herb canter (70.40.98.---)
Date: September 08, 2018 05:38PM

Actually for 6-10 pound mono Fuji GPS still recommends the KL-H 16 as the stripper just like it does with the 10 pound braid . The Fuji GPS software is much more accurate than people give it credit for , i tried the exact recommendations based on reel size , line size and specific measurements and the rod performed outstanding .

My tweaking's to see if i could get better performance was a failure , Fuji really did an outstanding job with that GPS software and i would advise anybody who doubts it to try their recommendations to see for yourself . I also thought it was a bunch of @#$%& until i made that first cast.

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Re: Bizarre guide spacing on Steez XT spinning rod: what to do?
Posted by: Michael Danek (---.drr02.mskg.mi.frontiernet.net)
Date: September 08, 2018 07:43PM

I'll try it again next build.

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Re: Bizarre guide spacing on Steez XT spinning rod: what to do?
Posted by: Norman Miller (---.gtcom.net)
Date: September 08, 2018 08:51PM

I agree with Herb the KR GPS does a very good job of getting you close, maybe just a little fine tuning. The NGC GPS is the one that gives people fits. What a lot of people do not understand about the KR concept is that it’s the height of the guides not the ring size that matters. So the KL-H guides feature a high frame with a smaller ring. Braid is soft and forgiving and passes easily through most guides. The KL16H is higher than a LV25 and as high as a Y20, and a KL25H is about the height of a size 40 V guide. So a KL16H it is plenty high enough for reels up to a size 3000 and braid up to 15#. If I am going to be using a 1000 or 2000 reel with light braid I use the KL16H reduction train. For 2500 and 3000 reels I like to up size to the KL20H based reduction train for braid up to a30. I think it gives a little more versatility without really affecting performance with a smaller reel and lighter braid. I have found that the KL25H based reduction train is just too large for most fresh water fishing situations, but I do use it for inshore SW fishing rods which use a reel larger than a 3000. Redoing the Steez rod with a proper KR setup, should be a good learning exercise and give you some insights into how the KR concept performs.
Norm

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Re: Bizarre guide spacing on Steez XT spinning rod: what to do?
Posted by: roger wilson (---)
Date: September 09, 2018 11:13AM

Lance,
How did the rod work out for you on your first fishing trip with the rod?

The rod won't catch any fish if it is hanging on the wall.

Lance, don't forget: A rod is a tool to catch fish. So to find out how well tools work for a particular job, you need to use that tool doing the job for which it was designed.

When you go fishing with this new rod, take along one of your favorite fisch catching rods that closely match the length and action of your new rod. Then switch back and forth, using the same terminal tackle to get a comparison between the rods with no changes made to the new rod before you go fishing with it.


Good luck



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/09/2018 11:16AM by roger wilson.

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Re: Bizarre guide spacing on Steez XT spinning rod: what to do?
Posted by: Lance Becker (---.dc.dc.cox.net)
Date: September 09, 2018 12:32PM

Roger,
Rain and work demands are keeping me off the water, and both impediments appear to be continuous until at least midweek.

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