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Kr layout Questions (again)
Posted by: Scott Lawrence (---.dyn.iinet.net.au)
Date: August 26, 2018 04:42PM

Hello, Have got my guides now and have taped them to the rod as per the kr gps recommendations.Now I have a few questions. Will give rod and reel specs first.
Rod total length 79 inches
Butt to spool axel tip 13 inches
Reel 2500 Shimano (spin)
Micro guides
5lb braid.
Guides are 16h,8h,5.5 m and 5 mm running guides
Kr gps gives guide positions as stripper 19"
Stripper to second guide 7.52"
Second to third 5.56"
Third to choke 6.66"
Total reduction train length 19.74"
Choke beyond axel tip 38.74"
Is it normal for the third guide to choke distance to be longer then the second guide to third guide distance?
It looks very strange but have no idea on how it actualy works.If I put the guides on table edge from the stripper edge to the choke guide edge the second and third guides fall short about 3 to 4 mm but when viewed from butt end looking for bullseye all looks fine. If you start to move stuff around is there a way that it should be done like not move choke or not move stripper or keep reduction train length as per kr instructions?
I did have a play and move a few things and bullseye seems good and guide spacing is visually better.
Total reduction train is now 20 1/4" long
Second to third is now 6.5"
Third to choke is now 6"
Choke is now about inch closer to tip.
As this is my very first rod build I have been learning a lot and asking a lot of questions. Does what I have done sound about right in regards to tweaking the layout?Also small moves can give big changes in bullseye look.I know this has been a long post but wanted to give you all the available info.Thank you so much for your patience and help.
Tight lines Scott.

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Re: Kr layout Questions (again)
Posted by: Ernest Horvath (---.lightspeed.rlghnc.sbcglobal.net)
Date: August 26, 2018 05:00PM

Scott, for your first build you are just about spot on. About the only other thing I would do is change the 5.5M to a 5.5L, then check your reduction guide placement again. Then you can tweak the guide placement for the best performance. Remember the GPS guide placement is a starting point that can be tweaked to give you the best performance. Using 5lb. braid, your rod will perform great. Good luck..

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Re: Kr layout Questions (again)
Posted by: herb canter (70.40.101.---)
Date: August 26, 2018 05:27PM

Don't over think it , i have found the KR GPS to be virtually dead on with minimal if any additional tweaking , at first i said this is odd and i need to change things but i said before i do i need to go test cast to see if Fuji really knows what they're doing . I was skeptical to say the least but when i started test casting my jaw dropped and i was blown away , awesome performance.


Even though i did slightly move things around i went back to what the GPS recommended and never looked back , couldn't be happier.

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Re: Kr layout Questions (again)
Posted by: Spencer Phipps (---)
Date: August 26, 2018 05:50PM

If you want to be able to order the guides you need and not every guide there is, and have goodmperformance when you are done, you have to lean more.towards Herb's advise. A progresive look is pleasing to the eye, but not necessarily the best rod performance, you need to figure what's more important to you.
Myself I don't care how it looks if it works better.

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Re: Kr layout Questions (again)
Posted by: Norman Miller (---)
Date: August 26, 2018 05:51PM

You are fine. I also do not like the non-progressive spacing that the KR GPS sometimes gives for the reduction train. The stripper at 19” is good and moving the choke out a little is fine to get the spacing that looks good to you. You could also leave the choke point where recommended and just progressively space the other two reduction guides between the stripper and choke, which ever works for you. For your rod, I would place the first runner about 9 cm (3.5”) from the tip top and then progressively increase the distance between runners about1 cm (i.e. 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14 cm) to the choke. Static test and test cast and tweak if needed. I think you will like what you get.
Norm

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Re: Kr layout Questions (again)
Posted by: Michael Danek (---.alma.mi.frontiernet.net)
Date: August 27, 2018 08:32AM

I've had no trouble with the Fuji recommendation for reduction guides if I set them up with spacing such that I get the bullseye, then place the first guide where I want it, moving the reduction train as a set to try different stripper positions. Then the running guides are set by the stress test. Your initial selection should work well as should the set with the suggested 5.5 L. If you want to be able to use braid over 15 I would use the set starting with a 20 stripper. It will work for 20# or so and everything under 20. I have never found the GPS to make much sense. With Herb's comment I should try it again.

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Re: Kr layout Questions (again)
Posted by: herb canter (70.40.101.---)
Date: August 27, 2018 12:03PM

#1)

Scotts original GPS Fuji printout below :


Stripper Position beyond spool axle tip:
19"
Stripper to Second Reduction Guide:
7.52"
Second Reducer to Third Reduction Guide:
5.56"
Third Reducer to Choke Guide:
6.66"
Total Reduction Train Length:
19.74"
Choke Point Position beyond Spool Axle Tip:
38.74"






























#2) Scott's concern about the distance between the 3rd and 4th guide changes slightly when changing from 6-10 pound braid to 20-30 pound braid but not much. With a 2500 size Shimano spinner using 5 pound braid you aren't going to be able to detect performance differences if your guide positioning stays within an inch or two of Fuji's recommended GPS printout at least from my testing . I myself use heavier braid than i do for fishing when testing guide layouts because i find light braid works well with even far less than optimal layouts .



Stripper position beyond spool axle tip:
20"
Stripper to Second Reduction Guide:
7.83"
Second Reducer to Third Reduction Guide:
5.93"
Third Reducer to Choke Guide:
5.55"
Total Reduction Train Length:
19.32"
Choke Point Position beyond Spool Axle Tip:
39.32"

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Re: Kr layout Questions (again)
Posted by: Scott Lawrence (---.dyn.iinet.net.au)
Date: August 27, 2018 04:20PM

Thank you Gentleman for the replies. It seems like I am on the right track. My main concern was about the guides spacing between the third and the choke being longer then the distance between the second and third guide. Visually to me it looked odd as I have never seen spacing be not progressive.But as Spencer suggests maybe it gives better performance at the Kr gps distances. I really need to go to the park and do some test casting.Now with the test casts am I looking for such things as longest distance, noise, vibration and how line seems to flow through the stripper.Also should I be using light weights or weights in the upper range of what the rod would be used to cast? The reel will only ever have the 5lb line on it as I have been using this set up for a long time and it works well for me for it's intended purpose.
Tight lines Scott.

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Re: Kr layout Questions (again)
Posted by: Norman Miller (---.lightspeed.jcsnms.sbcglobal.net)
Date: August 27, 2018 05:39PM

If you fish you will know if it is casting well, three important things are: quiet, smooth and long. I have made well over a hundred KR spinning rods, and have tested just about every possible combination of KR reduction guidees and their placement. Tweaking the stripper and/or choke guides in or out a few centimeters makes very little if any difference in performance. I think your layout will be just a good as the layout suggested by the KR GPS. It should be mentioned that choke pt positioning is not locked in stone. For example, the KR GPS moves the choke pt further out on longer rods even when the length of the handle, and reel and line size remain the same. Basically it places the choke guide at a distance from the stripper aproximately equal to 0.42 X the distance from the stripper to the tip top. So the longer the rod the longer the reduction train.For a given reel and line, You can either keep the choke pt at the same position from the stripper for all rod lengths or you can move the choke further out for longer rods, as done by the GPS. Performance is very similar, the only difference is the number of runners needed. When using braid the KR concept is great because it is very forgiving of small differences in guide placement. If you don't agree do the experiments and test it for yourself.
Norm

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Re: Kr layout Questions (again)
Posted by: herb canter (70.40.101.---)
Date: August 27, 2018 06:45PM

Scott Lawrence Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
My main concern was about the guides spacing between the third and the choke being longer then the distance between the second and third guide. Visually to me it looked odd as I have never seen spacing be not progressive.


Scott , the spacing difference is like an inch and i can say with certainty you won't be able to tell any difference whatsoever with a 2500 size Shimano spinner with 5 pound braid , consider it a complete non factor .



You can even just switch the two positions because it's a single inch difference , test cast the setup exactly as the GPS shows and then switch the 3rd and 4th guide distances as shown below and i would bet the house that you will still be unable to tell any difference whatsoever . That would solve your concern .


Stripper Position beyond spool axle tip: 19"


Stripper to Second Reduction Guide: 7.52"


Second Reducer to Third Reduction Guide: 6.66"


Third Reducer to Choke Guide: 5.56"

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Re: Kr layout Questions (again)
Posted by: Scott Lawrence (---.dyn.iinet.net.au)
Date: August 28, 2018 04:06PM

Thank you for all the advice you all have given. I really appreciate the wealth of knowledge and experience that new guy's like me can have access to on this forum.
Tight lines from OZ
Scott

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Re: Kr layout Questions (again)
Posted by: Phil Ewanicki (---.res.spectrum.com)
Date: September 01, 2018 04:10PM

These same questions are posed frequently. The problem is that there is no scientific, verifiable evidence available to determine the best guide spacing, only personal preferences - AKA "phony news" for some rod builders.

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Re: Kr layout Questions (again)
Posted by: Norman Miller (---.lightspeed.jcsnms.sbcglobal.net)
Date: September 01, 2018 06:25PM

I have no idea what you are talking about Phil! Fuji has done a lot of research concerning guide placement for both the NGC and the KR concept. In addition, there was a lot of research involved with the development of the microwave guide system. This research gave us starting points for placing guides on a particular rod blank. You should also realize that everytime someone places guides and tweaks their position by test casting they are doing an experiment. You do not need a lab coat to do an experiment and gain knowledge into what works best. These individual results may not be published in a scientific journal but nonetheless they are stil scientific results. This is not 'phony news'. Before retiring I was a research scientist for 35 years and have published over 150 full length peer reviewed scientific papers, in addtion to many more reviews and abstracts. I think I have a pretty good concept of what science is.
Norm

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