I'm trying to learn how to know what size guides I need for a casting rod. I saw in the library the spinning guide tutorial, but didn't see one for casting. I'm thinking of using Fuji guides, but I want very good guides on this rod, so any suggestions would help. Also, how do I know what sizes to order? I appreciate any help, or links to information that may explain this process. Thank you.

Matt, run a search on this forum. Try going back a year, if you don't get enough info, search all dates.

My search was limited, because I didn't change the date range, so I was limited to 30 days. Thank you for posting Lynn. I have a G-Loomis that uses 12, 10, 8, and then 7s. Is this a common set up? I'm using low profile baitcasters for pitching and was curious if that would play into what I would choose.

Matt, read the post 5 below this one. (KW) That deals with your subject. They're talking about a spiral wrap but that doesn't affect the guide sizes. I'll be back.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/28/2017 04:58PM by Lynn Behler.

Matt, go to the Anglers Resource link in the left margin and navigate to their casting article. I use all Fuji on casting rods, RV for the first one, then a couple KB's, then KT's to the end, size based on what one needs for knot passage. 5.5 is a sweet spot, small and light for sensitivity, but still will pass most knots well. Just two sizes, the RV6, then the rest the same size. Works fine. Most think they need much larger guides on casting rods than are actually needed, and they overthink and use more than two sizes-that is not necessary.

I'm back, do what Michael said. Happy New Year.

Matt, that is an awesome blank, and I love love LOVE the rod I built on it, and I have little doubt that you will too.

As far as the guides you might want to use, as you can see you'll get a couple of different suggestions. For me personally, I used Fuji LN and L guides with Alconite rings, on the rod I built using that blank. The LNs are double foot guides. The Ls are single foot guides.

As far as sizes go, I used a double foot LN 10 as the butt guide, followed by an LN 8, and an LN 6. Those guides comprise the reduction train. Do you need to go through a 3 guide step down in size in your reduction train? No. I just do it that way because I feel comfortable with it, and it looks right. Plus the LN 6 carries a little extra height further down the blank, which may or may not reduce the number of running guides you need to use. Whether it does or not, depends on what size running guides you go with.

As mentioned, for running guides I used Fuji L guides in size 4.5. I don't know what type of line you plan on using, but if it''s braid and you plan on using a leader, you may want to consider a size 5. I personally wouldn't use a 6 as running guides simply because they weigh more. Of course using smaller guides means you'll need to use more guides. I have seen discussion on this site dealing with how much weight savings you actually get using more and smaller guides. The discussions took into consideration the added weight of the thread and finish associated with a higher number of guides, I have yet to see a definitive answer to the discussions, but what is definitive is that the rods I have built with micro guides, will out cast the factory rods that I have without micro guides.

I also feel that a higher number of guides, harnesses more of the blanks power.

Concerning the set up of the G Loomis rod you mentioned. It's a factory rod and therefore built to work with a wide variety of reels and line types. There is no need to use a 12 because you're not using a tall reel. Michael is a trusted member of this site with much more experience than me. I am sure his suggested guide train will perform beautifully. If you're wondering how a size 6 guide will work when your Loomis rod uses a 12 as it's butt guide .... it's more because of the height of the RV6, than it is the size of the ring. Although, even though I have yet to use one, I'm sure the smaller ring size pays dividends as well.

As for the other guides Michael mentioned, I certainly don't want to speak for him, but my guess is he suggested the KB's because, one .... they are lighter than double foot guides, and two and IMO of more importance for guides in that area of the blank, because of their wider guide foot. As for the KT guides as runners. The KTs are awesome guides, but for me personally, I have trouble using a locking wrap with them, so I stick with the Ls on that type of rod.

And like Michael stated and I alluded to, there is no true need for a plethora of different guide sizes. I do it the way I do it for reasons I mentioned earlier. It's my personal preference.

Oh and in case you're wondering about a starting point to place your butt guide, I use a Shimano Castaic 200 SF reel on the rod I built on the blank you mentioned, and I have the butt guide 21 1/4" from the face of the reel's line guide. Certainly not a measurement set in stone, but it's a place to start.

Hope I've helped

Lynn, thank you for the reference to the other post and Happy New Year to you as well!

Michael and David, thank you for taking the time to reply. I just get nervous when trying to decide, because there are so many darn choices, it's quite confusing! Anyway, I'll be keeping it to a couple different sizes and for me the lighter the better. I always appreciate when people with the experience take the time and share.

One other question, with the smaller guide sizes, will I just require a bunch more guides on the rod? Some of these casting rods you can see the line drop below the blank when put under stress and I don't want that.

There are two different Fuji guide Concepts used for building casting rods. The first is the New Guide Concept (NGC) and usually uses larger sized stripper and running guides. The second is the newer KR concept which is considered a micro guide concept. Since I rarely use NGC anymore, I’m only mentioning the KR concept. So for all KR (micro) concept casting rods Fuji recommends using either a KW10 or an RV6 as the stripper guide. They are both the same height at the base of the ring and Fuji found this height to be optimal for controlling line coming off the casting reel. The KW guides come in all the various stainless and titanium frames offered and in all ceramic ring types. The RV6 only comes with a titanium frame with either Sic or Torzite rings and thus are at least 3X more expensive than a KW guide with a stainless frame. Both work great as strippers, it is just a matter of preference. Fuji also recommends using a KW5.5 as the second guide, the double foot KW5.5 supposedly gives the guide a little more stability in this portion of rod which is under a lot of stress when loaded. However, this double foot KW5.5 can be replaced with with a single foot KB5.5. The KB guides are running guides that have a long and wide foot and are used in the mid section (belly) of the rod to better resist load stress forces. After the second guide you can use any size running guide you want, using at least 2 or 3 KBs with the rest of the running guides being KT guides. The KT guides are used in the tip section of the rod and have a shorter and thinner foot because the tip section is subject to less load stresses. These KTs are a lighter version of the KB. Micheal likes to use size 5.5 KB/KT running guides. I mostly use size 4.5 KB/KTs. Some like a size 4 runner, while others feel that a size 5 runner is the best compromise. The runner size is your choice. Hope this helps.
Norm
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Well said Norman, I follow the same guide train layout. Lots of different preferences out there, especially regarding the reduction train aspect. You have some awesome advice here!

Thank you for the additional advice Norman. I'm going to build a couple different ways based on Michael, David and Norman's advice. I'm really looking forward to using these rods. After this, I'm going to try and build a fly rod...so you'll be hearing from me again! lol.

Matt, did I not read in the beginning that you are building a spiral? (Oops, cannot find that comment, so. . .never mind ) Guides will be on the bottom and cannot get onto the blank, and no need to add guides over what you would do for a spinning blank. I personally don't feel the torquing that some try to fix with spiral, and I don't like their looks, so use spiral only for trolling rods, where it really does make sense. With the KR and KB/T guides on a casting rod, they are so close to the blank that the moment arm that generates the torque is pretty small. If you do the rod as a conventional you may want to add a guide relative to a spiral build. Most builders agree that the occasional line contact on a rod under load is not a problem. Use your own judgment.

I'll explain my choice of KB's and KT's. I do use KB's on the heavier rods and in the lower two running guides on medium rods. I do like the bigger foot for the extra strength. But if you use them near the tip, that bigger foot can be about as large as the tip diameter, so I prefer the smaller foot KT's there. The stresses are lower there, also. There is a comment on having trouble doing a locking wrap on them. I've never done a locking wrap on them; they are so low that their exposure to loads that could dislodge them is minimal. I've never had one move. I do locking wraps on the transition (KLH) guides on spinning builds, the guides being much higher and likelier to be subjected to loads that could move a guide.

My choice of 5.5's is that I think that is probably a sweet spot not very sensitive to knot size, is still a pretty small, light, guide, and my rods cast very well. So I really don't sacrifice much if any distance relative to smaller guides. I have done smaller ones, but have "evolved" to 5.5.

Michael, I'm building this rod for pitching. I plan on building a conventional rod, not a spiral. I ordered Fuji KW, KB, and KT titanium guides. I've only built one micro guide rod, so we'll see how this goes. I actually have two of these Rainshadow Immortal blanks I'm building. I have never built a spiral rod. My next project will be a fly rod, as my son wants me to build him one.

I either missed something, or I am very confused .... or both lol I saw no mention of the build being a spiral wrap. Anyhow .....

Matt, as you see there are many different suggestions. I will say that mine comes without the type of knowledge that Norman and Michael have about guide trains. I'm more entrenched in the traditional type of guide train. That's why I still use 3 double foot guides in the reduction train, and I doubt I'll ever build a casting rod differently. It's a personal preference thing.

Your question as to whether or not smaller guides will require "a bunch more guides on the rod". Yes, their use is definitely going to require the use of more of them. How many more depends on the size you use. Or more accurately, the height from the bottom of the guide's foot, to the inside of the bottom of the ceramic ring. The shorter that distance, the more guides will be required. As you said, you certainly don't want the line passing below the blank. Having guides spaced like that will cause the blank to over flex in that area. If the distance between guides is great enough, the blank could break.

As Michael mentioned, a lot of builders have no problem if the line touches the blank. For me personally, I don't want the line to touch the blank, so I use enough guides to keep the line from touching. Again, it's a personal preference thing. And when I say I don't want it touching the blank, that doesn't mean I have a big gap between the blank and line. I space them so the line gets very close to the blank. Again, it's a personal preference thing.

Static load guide placement, and your personal preference are going to determine the number of guides you'll need on the rod. Some may say you may not need that many guides, but I look at it this way ....... if I have a personal preference, and using a certain number of guides will satisfy that personal preference ..... then that's how many guides I need. It doesn't matter if its a conventionally wrapped casting rod, a spiral wrapped casting rod, or a spinning rod. I am going to use the number of guides needed to satisfy my own personal preference.

I guess what I am getting at is, just because I tell you that I have 12 guides plus the tip top on the rod I built on the blank you mentioned, doesn't mean that you have to use that many guides. I built the rod the way I wanted it built.

And I know I sound like a broken record to some members of this site when this blank's name comes up ................ but it really is a phenomenal blank. You are going to love that rod!!!

There are several different threads going on at the same time about KR guide useage and couple of them involved spiral wraps I can certainly understand Micheal’s confusion, I also got lost as to where I was in these threads, since we made similar comments in all of them.
Concerning locking wraps; I do a locking wrap on all my single foot guides. If for no other reason then it gives me some extra confidence that the guide foot will never pull out, although I have never had one pull out when I don’t do a locking wrap. Also I have not had any problem doing a locking wrap on the KB/KT guides you just have to make sure you wrap all the way to the guide stem before you do your two wraps behind the guide ft, then the three separate wraps around the the guide stem, and the final three wraps behind all of this. Before cutting the thread, I pull on the tie off loop on both ends and wiggle it back and forth, and this snugs everything up so there are no gaps showing. I do this locking wrap almost subconsciously and it has become almost second nature. I am not advocating that locking wraps need to be done, I am just stating that I use them. I should note that I replace a bunch of pulled out guides every year from commercially built rods, especially those with micro guides.
Norm

Matt,

There has been a bunch of replies to your posting; but I will share my personal experience when I built myself a flipping stick. I used the Fuji KB/KT guides and went with #4 running guides. I also use braided line with a Floro top shot. I found that I had trouble with a knot passing through the size 4 guides. I solved the problem by lengthening the fluorocarbon leader to keep the knot out of the guide train. The only probelm is the flipping stick is an 8' long St Croix SC4 and the added length makes it a little cumbersome to flip. You might consider using 5 mm running guides. The increased size doesn't add that much more weight and, (if you flip with braid/floro line), you won't have the issue I have experienced.

Don Campbell
don@sensorfishingrods.com

Don, I certainly mean no disrespect, but wouldn't lengthening the leader to that extent, defeat the use of braid?

Years ago I used to use braid and a fluorocarbon leader when flipping and pitching. And despite using a factory rod with (by my standards now) huge #6 running guides, I still didn't like the idea of the leader knot passing through the guides, so I kept my leader the same length as the distance from my rod tip, to just in front of my reel. Depending on the rod's length, about 5 or 6'. My problem with that set up was that if I retied, my leader would shrink. Eventually I'd need to tie on another leader To me, the added pain of needing to do that, coupled with having another knot to be concerned about, I just pretty much stopped using braid.

I use braid on my frog rod, and if I need to, I use it and tie the braid directly to the hook.

Anyhow ..... this has been a good conversation. It's given me some things to think about for my next casting rod build.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/30/2017 12:56PM by David Baylor.

Awesome information guys! I do plan on using locking wraps on my single footed guides. I decided to go no smaller than 5.5 guides on these 2 rods and we'll see how that works for me. Now, I just have to prepare myself to deal with micros as they can frustrate me..lol.

You should have no problems with size 5.5 guides, their feet are almost gigantic even on the KT. If you are going to use a leader learn how to tie the FG knot.
Norm

Matt, other than the frustration that comes with running line through them when your eyes aren't what they used to be, my main frustration with micro guides is placing them on the rod prior to wrapping. If that's where you get your main frustration with them, I may have a suggestion that could help.

I used to use blue painters tape to tape my guides on. It worked but if I wanted to test cast a rod prior to wrapping, I didn't like having to put on added tape to secure the guide well enough to cast with. I went from the blue tape, to silicone rubber thread that I got from a craft store. It worked well and I thought it was the cat's pajamas until I tried using some of the tubing that Mud Hole sells for holding guides in place.

It comes in four different sizes, and were it me I wouldn't make the same mistake I did initially, and I would order all four sizes. It works outstanding! Depending on the size tubing you use, and the number of bands you put on, it will hold the guides tight enough to make some pretty vigorous test casts. Having it that tight also insures that the very tip of the guide foot is tight against the blank for when you start wrapping over it. You can position it close to the tip of the foot, and once you get 7 or 8 wraps over the tip, you can either cut it off, or slide it back until you get enough wraps over the foot to where you feel comfortable cutting it.

The silicone rubber thread I used to use worked in the same manner, but the tubing is way quicker and easier. Surgical tubing would do the same thing, but I personally couldn't find it in the ID's that Mud Hole offers. Other members swear by orthodontic bands. Same idea, and maybe less costly than the Mud Hole tubing, but I went with the Mud Hole stuff just because it was one less place I needed to go to get the supplies I needed.

Of course you may already use it or something similar. In which case I'll just say, that the more you deal with micro guides, the less frustrating they'll be