For KR-concept reduction train starting with a 25 size stripper Fuji recommends #25H-#12H-#6M-#5.5L, but after numerous slo-mo clips and the success of ATC's Microwave system I've come to believe that the second guide can go even smaller. I'm thinking of something like #25H-#10-#5.5M-#5.5L which gives you more rapid reduction while retaining the size of your choker and runners(I can't go full micro because I'll be using bobber stop knots). Has anyone experimented with smaller second/third guides than Fuji's recommendation while retaining the size of the rest?
On the other hand, steepening your reduction cone goes against the whole purpose of using a KL-L choker instead of KB, i.e. more smoothly flowing guide train for leader/bobber knots, so that's another factor to take into consideration for me.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/07/2016 03:46PM by Frank Gyan.

How long is the rod, what size reel, and what weight and type of line are you using? Why 4 reduction guides vs 3? What size runners do you want to use?
Norm

If you're below 20# braid or about 12# mono use the 20H, 10H, 5.5M to 5.5 runners. The 25H to 10H to 5.5M will space oddly if you bullseye the reduction train.

Above 20# braid go 25, 12, 5.5.

Assuming an 3000 Series approximate reel size.

Norman Miller Wrote:
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How long is the rod, what size reel, and what weight and type of line are you using? Why 4 reduction guides vs 3? What size runners do you want to use?



Rod: somewhere between 6'6" and 6'8"
Reel: Daiwa 2500 (spool diameter almost as large as Shimano 4000)
Line: 20lb PE with a bobber stop knot(nail knot)
Runner size: #5.5
4 reduction guides with the KL-L choker let the line flow smoother so it's more knot-friendly.

Jim Ising Wrote:
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If you're below 20# braid or about 12# mono use the 20H, 10H, 5.5M to 5.5 runners. The 25H to 10H to 5.5M will space oddly if you bullseye the reduction train.

Above 20# braid go 25, 12, 5.5.

Assuming an 3000 Series approximate reel size.



Actually I don't care too much about the bullseye atm. Instead of bullseyeing the reduction guides in a straight line and having a sharp curve at the choker, I'm thinking about more curvy NGC-ish reduction train with KR-H guides. Check out the picture in the link below.
[imgur.com]



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 12/07/2016 05:08PM by Frank Gyan.

Nice thing about custom, you can do it any way you want! Good luck with it!

When you build a rod for an open face spin reel do you take into account the diameter of the reel spool and the alinement of its axis with the rod to plan guide size and placement? If so, could you give some tips on how to go about this?

Tape the guides on --- test cast -- only way to see how each will give and how it performs - Casting distance wise

Bill - willierods.com

Phil Ewanicki Wrote:
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When you build a rod for an open face spin reel do you take into account the diameter of the reel spool and the alinement of its axis with the rod to plan guide size and placement? If so, could you give some tips on how to go about this?



You remove the spool from the reel and use the spool axis as a guideline.
When it comes to spool diameter and stripper guide size, as a rule of thumb go for the stripper that's about half the diameter of your spool. For example, Daiwa #2500 spool's diameter is 48mm so most people choose size 25. However if you're going to use braided line you can go smaller because braided lines are so thin and supple that they don't get a lot of resistance going through the stripper.

I agree with Jim use KL 20H, KL10H, KL 5.5M and KB/KT 5.5 runners. Drop the KL 5.5L, you do not need it. The 20 H is more than high enough for the reel you are using. In fact your reel and line size are almost small enough to allow you to use a KL 16H, 8H, and 5.5M reduction train. This will give you a more rapid choke system, without loss in performance. The KL16H is as high as the AT 20/6 microwave stripper. If needed you can move the 16H a little further forward to give you a straighter line from the reel spool to the stripper guide. The reason Fuji groups the KR guides as they do is that thier heights relative to each other gives you a nice straight line from the reel spool to the choke guide using a reasonable spacing interval. My feeling is don't mess with something that works well. I should mention that I have made identical rods using both microwave and KR guides, and they both work very well. But in my opinion the KR concept wins out base on versatility.
Norm

As Bill mentioned the best way to determine performance is to tape on the guides and test cast. This will quickly let you know which reduction train works the best for you.

Norman Miller Wrote:
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I agree with Jim use KL 20H, KL10H, KL 5.5M and KB/KT 5.5 runners. Drop the KL 5.5L, you do not need it. The 20 H is more than high enough for the reel you are using. In fact your reel and line size are almost small enough to allow you to use a KL 16H, 8H, and 5.5M reduction train. This will give you a more rapid choke system, without loss in performance. The KL16H is as high as the AT 20/6 microwave stripper. If needed you can move the 16H a little further forward to give you a straighter line from the reel spool to the stripper guide. The reason Fuji groups the KR guides as they do is that thier heights relative to each other gives you a nice straight line from the reel spool to the choke guide using a reasonable spacing interval. My feeling is don't mess with something that works well. I should mention that I have made identical rods using both microwave and KR guides, and they both work very well. But in my opinion the KR concept wins out base on versatility.



My Daiwa 2500's spool diameter is almost as large as a Shimano 4000 reel. Is the KL20H really suitable for a spool that big? I'm worried about line slapping the guide frame during casts because the guide ring diameter is so small in relation to spool diameter.

[imgur.com]

This is another drawing that explains my schemes.

Yes, the size 20H will work very well and so will the 16H. Ring size is not as important as the guide height. This is a concept that has been hard for some people to get their heads around. Europeans have been using high frame small ring guides for decades, with their match rods. In fact back at least 30-40 yrs ago a number of American builders, including Dale Clemens, were touting the high frame small ring concept, but it never really caught on here. I think the reason for this was that it looked 'strange' or 'different'. Just recently Fuji reintroduced the high frame small ring concept when they came out with the KR concept. It is just now gaining in popularity, and the reason for this is performance, and not looks. You should remember that with the older style guides that the larger the ring the higher the guide. So this half the size of the spool diameter was used to give you a guide that was high enough to be placed at a reasonable distance from the spool of the reel you were using. As I mentioned above, the only way to convince your self that this higher frame smaller ring will work is to tape on the various guide combinations and test cast. I think you will be surprised with the results. For spinning rods I have switched almost exclusively to the KR concept. It really works well for the types of rods I build.
Norm

Thank you for your advice!

The high frame, small ring concept never went anywhere, Pac Bay has built match guides for our market for 30+ years I guess, G Loomis used them on their long, light powered steelhead rods till Shimano bought Gary out.

Fuji also sold match guides, I still have a couple laying around. Cabelas used to sell a number of different rods with match guides. I think one of the reasons they did not catch on was because every guide was high frame including the tip top. They really did look strange. I think things changed when the high frame guides were used in combination with low frame guides as runners. The Fuji new guide concept started this trend with the introduction of the high frame Y guides as strippers and reduction guides and paired them with the L (fly) guides as runners. Microwave guides took this trend in one direction, and Fuji modified the NGC to develop the KR concept.to take it in another direction. Sort of fun to watch how rod building has evolved over the years.
Norm

On most spin reels the spool seems to point straight ahead, parallel to the rod. I have also seen spin reels where the housing and the spool are "bent" a little, out of parallel with the reel seat, to point at the blank where the stripping guide would be. It seems like this alinement would create less friction between the line and the lip of the reel spool and it would also affect the ideal diameter and height of the stripper guide as well as its placement along the length of the blank. I imagine Bill's suggestion of test casting with different sizes and configurations of guides will give the best results, but only if that particular reel and line is used with this rod. This would also minimize the usefulness of all the profusion of guide spacing charts out there.

The tip top wasn't any higher than any guide we used than, the ring had to be further away to clear the blanks on the larger tube sizes, much the same problem slowed the development of the micro tip tops. Originally they were only available to a 3.9 tube if I remember right.

I have a ruler on my bench. I use it to make sure SK2 parts are 1.375" apart. ;) Other than that I never reach for it, all I need is a bare spool axle and a static load set up.

The entire equation is about energy lost in the cast; energy (from a loaded blank) that's never converted to line speed because it's used up in other ways.
Rings (friction) use up energy while they are restricting and controlling line flow. Optimum combinations smooth flow with minimal energy loss.
The bullseye is based on a simple idea. Which of these "jobs" would you expect to use LESS energy:

reduce coil, reduce coil, reduce coil

or

reduce coil and change direction, reduce coil and change direction, reduce coil and change direction

Bullseye wins every time in my mind.

Tom might jump in here now and talk about how tiny all these factors are and how you will never be able to even feel the difference and how immeasurably small they are and YES, he is right...they are. But the bigger take away here, I think, is a fundamental basis you can build guide trains from. It's a point of view that will allow you to develop a great guide train on any rod with minimal effort and in minimum time - the first time you build it!

The physics never change and neither does the goal. Control with minimal energy loss. There is no formula or chart. Without the fundamentals, we are all simply duplicating the work of those who understand.