Just wondering if there is a trick to this technique. I used a red underwrap in Madeira thread. I followed with a thin coat of epoxy before wrapping. Used Fish Hawk nylon black for the guide wrap and had it nice and tight and well burnished. Put the epoxy on yesterday and streaks of red began to peer through where before was a solid black wrap. I know many of you wrap nylon with no CP, but what's the trick?

Hi Randy,
I dont know if there's any trick to that.. Why not underwrap in black where the guide foot will be sitting.?
It's fairly simple changing colours while you underwrap..

Red shouldn't show through black, so I can only assume the wrap wasn't as tight and smooth as you thought. Almost certainly there were gaps between some of the black threads. Look at it under magnification and see if you can find gaps where the red is showing.

..............

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Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 09/20/2016 04:23PM by John E Powell.

Have limited experience with under wraps, but wonder if in addition to a packing issue as John P described, maybe the thread diameters made the issue worse? As i remember it, under wraps are typically made with a smaller diameter thread, such as size A, and the over wrap, i.e. the guide wrap, is made using larger diameter thread, such as size D. So, going back to John's cross sections, it would be more difficult to pack the guide wrap if the under wrap is a larger or nearly equal diameter of the guide wrap.

Putting finish on the under-wrap may have been the issue Unless it is left to dry really well I find that the over wrap will sink into it and make it hard to Pack the thread Hard to move them
I put Permagloss on the under wrap Harder quick to dry and easier to pack thread over it

Bill - willierods.com

Tom, John and Bill, I think you have the right of it. I will definitely do more packing. I usually only do that if I see visible gaps as I pack. And CP seems to prevent the problems I've had. I'll try to make a regular habit of packing instead of just burnishing.

Donald, the Fish Hawk nylon was size D, so I pretty much went from one extreme to the other. Because Madeira is thinner than A. But this shouldn't really be an issue anyways because of the epoxy on the underwrap.

I think Bill is right about the epoxy needing more time to cure before wrapping. The other rod I'm working on has a black on black on black triple wrap so shouldn't be an issue. I also didn't epoxy before guide wrapping, just a urethane based CP. The size a was a bit difficult to move about, but the D shouldn't be an issue. Another problem with epoxy on the underwrap (if not fully cured) is that it makes guide repositioning more difficult after wrapping. I am very anal and make sure it's lined up perfectly before wrapping. This takes more time, but I don't have to worry about moving them once wrapped.

As always, thanks for the words of wisdom everyone!

Randy,
Just to ask the question. Why do you do the underwrap?

Be safe

Aesthetic reasons mostly. I wanted a rod with my college colors and its easier for me to be decorative in the underwraps than the guide wrap, especially in the middle between the guide feet. Its an offshore rod, so not concerned with the extra weight of thread and one light layer of epoxy. If I should be let me know; you guys have way more knowledge than I in this field.

Well, I do not use Madeira, but it is my understanding that CP needs to be applied before the epoxy. Am I wrong? Will you be exposing the red Madeira between the guide feet and will it be used as trim bands?

Some epoxy sets harder and may yellow faster than others. With red and black, you should not have a lot of concern with the epoxy yellowing.

Don Becker

Donald, the Madeira underwraps were CPed and epoxied. The overwraps were using actual rodbuilding nylon thread.

Black regular nylon does not need CP I there for think it is the packing as all have said that is the cause of the red showing though This is why I like permagloss or the like to cover any thread that will be covered with more thread If you can make a mark with you thumb nail it is to soft IMHO

Bill - willierods.com



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/02/2016 04:51PM by bill boettcher.

Yeah I just never bothered to pack. They looked good dry, so I thought the epoxy would just go on the same. Will definitely do so in the future. Now I know. And knowing is half the battle. G.I. JOE!!! (like the throwback???). :)

Randy, you probably know...but in case you don't....and for the lazy ones here.

I find one can get away without packing by guiding the thread on at an angle as you wrap. Only works on longer wraps without "obstructions" like underwraps. Basically get the wrap started and then increase speed a bit and hold the thread at as much angle as you can (say 20-30+ degrees) without climbing over the previous wrap (aka professional over run).

I build offshore stuff in much the same way. I also coat underwraps but wait a day before the overwrap. FWIW I use threadmaster. Personally I might look at thread brand choices. Any black thread that needed CP would be enough reason for me to never use it again.

Russ in Hollywood, FL.

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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/20/2016 04:23PM by John E Powell.