I am building a bass fishing senko rod, as you may have read from my other post. The rod is a 7' casting rod, between a M and MH power. My question is about guide materials. Will it matter using different material for the guides other than looks? The reason I ask this is because there does not seem to be a huge difference in weight for a micro guide vs a titanium guide and I was thinking this might be a good way to cut down on a little of the price. So my thought was using a Torizite size 6 DF stripper, a size 5 torizite titanium belly guide, then run a size 4 micro and 3's after that in stainless alconite. Ending up with a titanium frame torizite tip top. I think G Loomis uses a similar technique on their NRX rods? I am hoping this would increase the sensitivity a bit over using all alconite guides buy cutting down on the heaviest guides and tip top. Curious as to your guys thoughts on the matter. The looks of it should actually not be too far off either, just alternating black and metal frames for the most part. Thanks!

edit: upon more research, I found out recoil guides are actually used. Thoughts of recoils vs the alconites? 10-15 fluoro will be used as line. Thanks!



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 03/12/2016 03:06PM by Larry Majkrzak.

Titanium frames cost more, are light and very corrosion resistant but are easier to bend and break. Stainless steel frames are sightly heavier, with good corrosion resistance, and are less likely to bend and break. As far as ring material, torzite is the thinnest and thus lightest ring material which allows for a larger guide opening for a given size. Alconite and Sic guides are very similar in opening size with alconite being slightly lighter. All of the various ceramic ring materials are very tough and hard. In fact you cannot cut or even scratch any of them (torzite, sic, alconite, or aluminum oxide) with a hacksaw blade or metal file. If you do not believe me try on the cheapest salvage guide you have. Therefore they will all hold up to any type of line you want to use. In my opinion, titanium guides are overkill for a bass rod. Also I do not see a big overall functional advantage advantage to torzite guides to justify the cost difference. Torzite guides are about 4X more expensive than alconite. Granted they are lighter, but not that much lighter, you are only saving a gram or two total when using all torzite and a gram is 1/28 of an oz., and the heaviest guides are placed on the rod where guide weight is less important. In your scenario the weight saving is even less. I have built rods for people that want the highest end (and highest priced) rod that can be had. Others want a cost effective but very functional rod. Others are some where in between. It all depends on what you want and what you can afford. Hope this helps.
Norm

PS - Titanium tip tops are not all titanium. They have a titanium frame but the tube is SS. So they are not that much lighter than other tip tops.

So far as I know there are no titanium guides. They would be horribly expensive if there were any. Instead, what are advertised as "titanium guides" are (1) guides made of stainless steel or some base metal which are vapor coated with a layer of titanium a few mils thick or (2) guides made entirely of a titanium ALLOY - usually nickel/titanium, AKA "NiTi" (REC "Recoil" guides) Recoil guides will bend, but they will NOT break - and they will return to their original shape.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/12/2016 03:37PM by Phil Ewanicki.

The Fuji titanium guides are in fact a solid titanium alloy of some type and are not titanium PVD coated stainless steel. They are not a NiTi alloy because when bent they do not spring back. They are strong and light but are more expensive. Do not get me wrong, fuji titanium torzite guides are extremely nice. Whether or not they are worth the extra cost is a valid question. Some will say yes and some will say no. Depends on what is important to you. Personally I find it hard to pay more for a set of guides than for a blank, and in some cases a blank, reel seat and grips.
Norm

Larry below is a link posted about 6 years ago after evaluating Batson s ALPS guides for several months
Since that time until present (roughly 7 years) I have yet to have a single alps guide fail, I can not say that about any of the other Micro's I've tried including Batson's first design .

I have recently been asked to evaluating a set of Micro Titanium guides from a new player in the market which look promising, But hesitate to recommend them until they have been tested for a while to see how they will hold up and perform.

The Torzites are a good guide. Lighter with little less material and larger ring center opening.
But I have found better casting distances from smaller ring centers regardless of manufacturer.
If you are looking to pass knots? Torzites might be the better choice, if not I would opt for the smaller ring centers.

As for the recoil's I never used then in building rods. So I can not say how they will or will not hold up. My only experience with them has come from an angler asking me to remove them from rods. Who did not like the humming noises they make on rods as the line is reeled through them (I have not personally used a rod with these to know what they do, just removing them when requested)

This site was hacked few years back, and some of the scribbled up words are left over traces from that attack but every thing is still readable.
[rodbuilding.org]

The only other thing that has changed since that post; Is that Batson now considers me one of their pro staff and Bill bought me breakfast and dinner at the Rod show this year.

Steve-
I am not going to be passing any knots. The weakest part of a fishing setup is always a knot so i try to stay away from leaders as much as I can. Thanks a bunch for helping me so much with this. It seems others here value your options highly so therefore I will as will. I'm am going to check out the Baston micros and see what I can come up with. I think I'm ready to order some parts, get this thing built, and enjoy an awesome summer of largemouths!

Larry;
This is a great forum that some the worlds finest builders visit and share info on. And amazingly most are willing to support new builders.

Mr Kirkman does an excellent job of insisting that things are kept civil and professional. A standard I greatly respect him for, and wish some other sites would adopt.

I too hope you have a great fishing year. Sinko season is upon us.
Spent yesterday on Lake Wylie practicing for the first NC TBF state Championship. Was the best fishing trip I've had so far this year

Fishing is my drug of choice and rod building comes in a close second

I find the comments on guide frame materials quite entertaining, especially the comments that a guide isn't really titanium, but is a titanium alloy. Almost ALL metallic components of ANY type are made of alloys, whether they be steel, stainless steel, titanium, cast iron gold, silver, aluminum, etc.. That is not a bad thing as it allows matching of the performance (and cost) of the component to the job to be done. Even plastics are often alloyed for the same reasons.

With guides of either titanium alloys or stainless steel alloys different manufacturers, for different reasons, often use different alloys that result in different costs and performance attributes for their products compared to others. In my experience there is a great difference between the performance of one major manufacturer's titanium alloy Y spinning guides relative to another's, but it is not because neither is pure titanium. It is because they chose different alloy solutions to the design of the fishing guides that I've used. For a different application, or a different type of guide, or a different rod builder's criteria, the relative merits could be reversed.

one of the main reason is the cost of PURE $$$ compared to other types of metal , just do the math coating is cheaper [ lots]
than PURE like stainless some will rust an others won't rust in 50 years an the $$ show' s the difference

William Sidney
AK

The devil is in the details. Steel of any sort is an alloy, Iron is not. There are huge differences between titanium, vapor deposited titanium on a base metal, and various titanium alloys. An informed rod builder is aware of these not-so-subtle details their impact upon pricing and their advantages and disadvantages. I believe the registered materialTorzite is a ceramic product and neither titanium nor a metal.

Depending on how much you want to spend $$$$$ The alconites are the middle range and very good guides And better priced

Unless
you want to believe all the BULL and spend money on better guides -

Bill - willierods.com

Bill Sydney, how much does "PURE $$$" cost?

the cost is about $3.75 per Kg an 1 KG = about 2.2 lbs so the cost is about $ 1.50 per LB sorry I was miss led did not look it up I have learned BILL SIDNEY

William Sidney
AK

Hit my KEY twice sorry

William Sidney
AK



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/14/2016 01:24AM by Bill Sidney.

You'll be fine mixing Titanium and Stainless and TORZITE® and ALCONITE®. Why would you alternate Black and Titanium? Get the Polished Stainless ACONITE and no one will be the wiser.

Thank you everyone for answering my questions. I really appreciate it. I ordered the parts today with two things on a week or so back order. I'll be posting pics as soon as it's all finished, hopefully in a month or so.

Cast iron is an alloy. iron + carbon.

Michael: It is dang near impossible and stupendously expensive to eliminate all trace metals and produce a "pure" metal. I do not think the cost of solid, unalloyed titanium guide frames is justified by their measurable benefits in use. Bragging rights are another matter.

My point was only to clarify that just about every metal we use is an alloy. By design. Including cast iron, of which there are many types with different alloying ingredients. I was not advocating for "pure" metal. Nor was I calling a "pure" metal with trace material an alloy. Most "pure" metals, meaning "pure + trace materials" are not used because their performance improves with alloying.

Hence all guide frames are alloys whether they are called stainless steel or titanium or whatever.