I've got a question about fly rod tip tops.
I got a digital scale early last year and began weighing guides & tops. Mainly to just satisfy some curiosity. What I found was that the standard stainless steel, wire fly tip weighs close to twice that of the last running guide before the tip. That applies to snake, single foot and Minimas & other ringed guides & tips.
So, we're trying to keep weight on the rod to a minimum. Especially, closer to the tip. But then add more weight to the very top. The place where, it seems, we'd want less weight. Seems strange. Or, is this somehow a good thing?
I tried the guide as a tip thing with a Minima and it works good. Used it all summer without incident. Maybe that's the solution.
Curious as to other folks opinions.

The tip top tube is the culprit on weight. Single foot guides wrapped on as a tip top are fine and many of us have done things that way for many years without any problems.

No - weight at tip is not a good thing at all.
Unfortunately REC discontinued its Recoil tip-tops where the tube were made of aluminum. They were very light. But since they have a black line of recoil guides the tip tops had to match. I understand the powder paint they used was not compatible with aluminum. So they went with stainless steel.
Herb

Quite a few float rods are built with a running guide wrapped on instead of a tip-top. I've built several that way, and have yet to see an issue.

Relatively few fly casters can manage an effective double-haul or cast farther than 50 feet. For the majority the amount of weight a tip-top adds to their fly rod is purely esoteric rather than practical. Still, you must keep trying to keep your customers satisfied.

I would be more concerned about the way the rod casts than about such minimal weight/

I haven't built a rod with a tip-top for maybe 3 years. I just bind on a single foot guide. (Fly and spinning rods)

It's plenty durable, much lighter than a tip-top and it avoids that annoying circumstance where the tip-top tube is the wrong diameter.

Tube size can be a pain.
I just think if you can reduce weight, especially in possibly the most important spot on the rod, you should.
A benefit is a benefit whether you're a beginner or on staff at Sexyloops.

Todd,
Have you tried reducing the length of the barrel ?
4 times the tip diameter should be adequate.
True the tip top is the largest single element in affecting rod response, but the affects are cumulative.
The next guide down is almost as pronounced until you get to the stripper which has the least affect.
The total combination of distance squared and weight determines the rod response characteristic.
The best news is if you build it for fastest response you can slow the rod down by adding weight at the tip if that's the requirement.
What is the resolution accuracy of your new scale ?
Most I've attempted to use were unsuccessful at measuring single light wire guides. The only success I've had is with gunsmith grain scales.

Gene

Weigh 4-5 guides at same time then use arithmetic.
There is no question in my mind that tip-top weight is significant.
As Eugene says - less important as you go down to strippers. Certainly the top section (S4) of a fly rod is where you have to save weight.
Re using s/f guides as tip tops - I can't get my head around the fact that the line exerts a lot of friction on the thread wrap while hauling on forward cast which will quickly wear through finish and thread.
Unless one is using very light fly rods. But for #7 and higher I would be afraid to go there.

I just re-built a #10 fly rod after 5 years for a customer who is a very aggressive caster. He wore through the finish and thread on all the s/f runners. One actually fell off when the thread was totally cut. I used to use only s/f guides on my rods and never even had a scratch on my finish. But I have heard from other people that this happens.
So I don't think the s/f guide thing would work with an aggressive caster and heavier rods.
But as one gets into the heavier rods - I guess the weight-savings are not quite as important.
Herb



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/13/2015 09:57AM by Herb Ladenheim.

Reducing barrel size is an option. Do have to use a Dremmel tool or something like that to get a clean cut? Is stainless hard to cut through?
Not sure on scale accuracy. Wasn't really looking at getting to scientific with the whole thing until I noticed the tip weights. Haven't tried measuring light wire guides.

Todd,
If you experience problems weighing a single guide relative accuracy of scale will produce inaccurate measurements.
Each guide could vary considerably and putting multiples on just leads to misrepresentation through averaging.
For example a guide should weigh 1 gram
If one guide scales 1.4 grams that rounds off to 1
If another guide scales .6 grams that rounds off to 1
The variance is plus or minus 40%
If both guides are scaled together then averaged that leads to an average of 1 yet neither guide is correct.
Manufacturers should publish product weights on certified scales.

Guide loads when the rod is in use, probably while fighting a fish near line break strength, are relative to the blank stiffness where they are attached. The rod tip can't exert loads as high as the rod butt can. The stripper guide will see higher guide loads than the tip top is capable of applying. Single foot guides in the tip section and stiffer double foot guides toward the butt.

Gene

You know, I do see some wear on the thread wrap on the single foot guide used for tip. And the single foot guides, especially the Minimas, do have a decently long foot. I think that thread wrap with the finish added is probably enough to equal out the weight gain of an average stainless tubed fly tip.
The Fuji titanium framed tips are probably the best compromise since they're the lightest. But expensive.