I was looking to buy a single-footed guide set for a spey rod. Unfortunately most of the ones I find are snake guides.
I thought I would take one of the single foot kits here and add a few extra guides to get enough for a Spey rod.
[www.mudhole.com]
But then I noticed something very strange, even kits for the smallest weight rods have rings larger than the spey rod kit. With the time difference, I can't seem to catch Mudhole on the phone.
Are single and snake guides measured differently? What am I missing here?

What length/weight of rod are you building?
If you are going to be using shooting heads, I would recommend snake guides. If you are using integrated lines, single foot guides should be OK. I've built several small speys with Minima single foot, and they work great with integrated lines. Not so much with the shooting heads, as the loop-to-loop can hang more freqently on the single foot running guides. If you are set on using single foot guides, check the manufacturer size charts to compare snake to single foot I.D.
The Minimas are sized differently than snake guide sizing. The smallest Minima I use on light spey rods (4-5 wt double hand rating) is a size 6. That gives enough clearance for poly leader or MOW tip connections.

Pac Bay has a chart of the sizes of snake and single foot wire guides on Mudholes site

Bill - willierods.com

What Bryan said.
As a matter of fact I only used s/f guides on my fly rods until the last year when I switched to snakes. It was expressed by those who should know - the snakes just shoot line better.
Herb

I'm looking for single foot because first, I only have to do half as many wraps and second because every wrap slows the rod. All of my single-foot rods out cast factory snake guide rods on the same blank - by a lot. I even have on 2/3 spey with high frame guides as an experiment. I'd be interested in more explanation of the comment: "It was expressed by those who should know - the snakes just shoot line better. "
So, the answer to my question is that, indeed snake and single foot guides are sized differnently. Well that is inconvenient! But good to know. Thank you.

Jon,
The reason I used s/f guides for years was my thought that they were the lightest I could use. I even choose raw carbon blanks from CTS because paint does weigh something. But the snake's feet - and we are talking REC Recoil - have a lower profile than the s/f. Also the wrap is shorter because of the Forhan wrap I use on s/f guides. I think the difference in weight of a finished wrap is non-existent between snakes and s/f.
Again - talking REC Recoils - the #5 s/f guide is same size as the #4 snake.
My decision was based on info from Chico Fernandez and Jerry Siem (Sage).
I have also been using Snakebrand snakes I/o REC even though they are marginally heavier. But I use one size smaller than the REC. I use a #3 Snakebrand on a #10 fly rod (integrated lines) and have had very good luck. Even passing snarls in running line.

Herb

Thank you for the detailed message. I have two identical blanks. I will try both methods and see if my prejudices are valid or fall.

Now I'm curious! Why would double foot snakes shoot line better? I'm not calling @#$%&, I'm just curious about the theory behind the statement. Jon, please post your findings for us after you're two rods are built and tested, and thanks for taking the time to do the experament.

-The Batson TEAM
BatsonEnterprises.com

Geoff
I DK.
It could be an old wives tale - something totally in someone's head that's without merit.
I don't believe the difference is drastic - and maybe not even measurable with the same model blank because there really are not two blanks of the same model that are EXACT duplicates of each other.
Let's chalk it up to personal preferences.
I will say that snakes do make stringing-up a fly rod easier.
Herb

I thought I had once heard that high ring guides reduced rod slap and gave more distance, so for a while I was using those.
I will build and test and get some opinions. Not sure I can collect actual data except to measure casting length/ caster.

Bill,
I'm not finding this: Pac Bay has a chart of the sizes of snake and single foot wire guides on Mudholes site.
Does anybody have the link, please?

Chrome single foot Scroll down
[www.mudhole.com]

Chrome snake guides
[www.mudhole.com]

Bill - willierods.com

So if snake guides are stonger and smoother, why do they only use them on fly rods?

Jon, I really think it comes down to tradition. The fly market is usually much more traditional than others and manufacturers must give the customer what they want. Double foot snakes are definitely easier to string up as Herb mentioned, and they are light weight until you add the weight of another finished wrap. If finish is kept to only the necessary amount, I'm sure the weight increase resulting from a second wrap is negligable.
My best guess is that to detect a difference in line shooting capability between double foot snakes, single foot snakes, and single foot terminal style guides, one would have to have robotic consistancy in their casts and/or make a lot of measured casts to build a large sample resulting in a good solid comparison. I think that factors like the ease in which slack line loops passes into the guide train on a cast, and coatings applied to the fly line and/or guides and rod likely have a greater affect on casting distance. I personnaly like single foot snakes on 7wt and under single handed rods and regular single foot ringed guides on everything larger, including switch and spey. They just make for fewer wraps and I'm also all about keeping weight off the upper half of any rod that will be used to make casts.
One last thing intended to troll up some collective pondering: Do double foot guides (any double foot guides) add greater stiffness to a rod than single foots? In other words, does having a small bridge of steel spanning a small section of rod blank multiplied by 8-12 times create a great enough impediment to the flex of those sections to be noticed when compared to a rod with the same number of single foot guides? I think a CCS comparison is in order for sure, but I'd like to hear some thoughts from the custom world.

-The Batson TEAM
BatsonEnterprises.com

Geoff,
I always put a huge, ugly tamer on my rods.
Since you are in the NW and sell guides, you could probably really help me cut to the chase: can you please specify a set of snake guides and a set of "equivalent" single-footed guides from your line up for a 6wt 13' spey rod so that I can order them, I will build the two rods to the best of my ability, and perhaps we can get together and play with them.

Jon,
Sorry but I've another variation that you may explore.
Hybrid
Snakes for the lower 2/3 of the rod and single foot for the tip third.
I generally use Recoil light wire titanium single foot for the tip 1/3 with std snakes for the lower 2/3 with an initial stripper with insert ring.
Snakes shoot line better especially with the longer distance between guides in the butt section of the rod.
The reason is due to the length bias of the snake creating a length versus time.
Imagine a speed bump. Would you prefer to hit straight on or at an angle. The angle creates a time step for the tires reducing shock.
In the rod tip where guide distance is reduced weight reduction becomes the large factor, hence single foot light wire guides. Stiff guides aren't required on a very flexible tip. They do make the tip stiffer but the weight penalty reduces tip speed.

Gene Moore

Eugene, that is very interesting, but now I'm on a mission to do an apples to oranges comparison. As soon as somebody can set me up with equivalent guide sets, I'll order them and start wrapping.

Hi Jon,
I'll get some info posted for you by the end of today.

-The Batson TEAM
BatsonEnterprises.com

I had just looked up your email through LinkedIn!
PS, this rod is for the inimitable Bob Triggs, so it's a fun project and we should all get together and tell some lies in Port Townsend when this is done.

Hi Jon,
Below I have posted an example build sheet for our 13' 7wt IMMORTAL spey. We don't have a 6wt in the 13' length but the 7wt info should do the trick. Below that is a duplicate guide group with single foot ceramics instead of the double foot snakes. I put size 07s as the single foot runners just to be safe, although I imagine most loop to loop connections would pass our size 06 guides without a problem. I will typically run a standard snake top with singles vs. a terminal gear type braced top but I'll leave that up to you. And yes, I'd be interested in discussing the findings when the field tests are done. I would then be happy to post the findings for the readers of these posts. I promise I won't lie about the findings, maybe.....

IMMF1307-4GBY
Rainshadow Spey Rod

Component Part Number Part Description
Rod Blank Model # IMMF1307-4GBY Blank 13'0" 4pc 7wt-Burgandy
Spey Butt Cap: HESBC20CC High End Spey Butt Cap Size 20
Spey Rear Grip: HESRG4SCC2-375 High End Spey Rear Grip 4.0" with Cork Composite .375" Bore
Reel Seat: RA801L2TR-SG #8 Alum Fly R/S w/rec hood & Dbl lock nuts TR - Shiny Gunsmoke
Reel Seat Shim: SHIM/16/SPIN .590" OD 3.70" Length
Spey Fore Grip: HESFG14CSCC2-350/895 High End Spey Fore Grip 14" with Cork Composite .350" Bore
Winding Check: AWCCO433-TC Aluminum Winding Check w/cut out .433 I.D. - TC
Hookeeper: TCHKS Hook Keeper TiCarb Sm
Tip Top XTCFTL4.5 SS316-Titanium Carbide Pltd Lg Lp Fly Tp 4.5 Tube
Guides (see below for size and quantity) XTCHSNGP SS316-Snake Guide Grd-TICH w/Chrome
Guides (see below for size and quantity) TIMXNZG Guide Titanium MXN Zirc Rg-Polished

Guide order from the tip top Guide Placement - In inches from the tip top (Snakes)
1st XTCHSNGP3 5"
2nd XTCHSNGP3 10.375"
3rd XTCHSNGP3 16"
4th XTCHSNGP3 22"
5th XTCHSNGP3 29.5"
6th XTCHSNGP3 37.5"
7th XTCHSNGP4 48"
8th XTCHSNGP5 59.25"
9th XTCHSNGP6 71.675"
10th TIMXNZG12 84.875
11th TIMXNZG16 100.5"
12th TIMXNZG20 116.5"

Guide order from the tip top Guide Placement - In inches from the tip top (Single Foot Ceramic)
1st TIPFZG07 5"
2nd TIPFZG07 10.375"
3rd TIPFZG07 16"
4th TIPFZG07 22"
5th TIPFZG07 29.5"
6th TIPFZG07 37.5"
7th TIPFZG07 48"
8th TIPFZG08 59.25"
9th TIPFZG10 71.675"
10th TIMXNZG12 84.875
11th TIMXNZG16 100.5"
12th TIMXNZG20 116.5"

-The Batson TEAM
BatsonEnterprises.com