Hey guys so I have been doing some reading, and I need some help understanding this. So far most of my builds I have been balancing the rod. I do this by leaving the butt grip off the rod until everything else has been done. The very last thing I do is take a bolt and thread some nuts onto it. I add or remove the nuts until the rod is balanced right at the end of the reel seat on the side closest to the tip.

Now I have read some people say this hurts the sensitivity and action of the rod. I am not saying they are wrong, that is not the purpose of this post, I am just saying I am confused as to how that is the case. If I were adding weight above the reel seat than I would think that yea that would hurt he rod in these two regards. However, when the weight is added below the place I hold the rod at, I would think it should not matter. If it makes the tip feel lighter than I would think it would help with sensitivity as it would be easier to feel added weight from the fish on the end of the rod? I am still new to all of this, so I just would appreciate some clarification on what adding weight to the end of the rod actually does and how it helps or hurts the final outcome of the build. Thanks so much

When is your rod balanced? When it has no weight hanging from the tip? A half ounce of weight? Two ounces of weight? Before the cast? After the cast?

Cameron,

It's so easy to achieve a good feel with modern qaulity blanks, guides and thiughtful grip design and seat location that I just don't see any advantage to adding weight anywhere on a rod. Add to that that rods are held and moved in so many different direction and planes while fishing, and the whole idea of balancing at a particular point goes out the window. I think a large part of the focus bass anglers put on balance of a rod is from the marketing of mass producers. Why pay a premium price for a lightweight blank and then turn around and add 50% of the bare weight again? If the counter balance idea really held water, I could take a $30 blank, counter balance it and say it's "light in hand" and as good a top of the line blank. Sensitivty is all about weight / stiffness ratio adding weight to the handle doesn't do anything for that. At the end of the the day there's no right or wrong, just what you like.

The rod has no weight hanging from the tip when it is balanced.


Thanks Mike, so then with the ratio of weight to stiffness, I take it that is the finished build correct? So ideally I should get the rod balanced by where I put the reel seat without making the rear grip to big, and add as little or no weight as possible. You do not think it hurts anything though to add that extra weight in the butt? I prefer short rear grips even on longer rods. That is why I have been balancing them, to compensate for the length I like on a rear grip.

A fishing rod is a lever. Levers rotate in a circular motion and multiply or divide force as work is done along their length.

Weight added, or force applied to, a rod at a distance from the point of rotation acts upon that lever. A small weight or force at a tip of a long lever can have a greater net effect than a heavier weight or force applied close to the rotation point.

From a counterbalance standpoint adding weight to a butt can offset too much force or weight from the tip section. But that is not the only concern in rodbuilding. Fisherman not only balance rods, at times they cast rods. To cast a rod it must be accelerated and then brought back to rest. All other things being equal, the more quickly acceleration and deceleration occurs the more efficient the lever is. Adding weight, or a load, to a lever dampens or slows the cast reducing efficiency. Think of this in terms of tools, can you more easily swing a 3lb axe or a twenty pound sledgehammer?

Timing. When casting force is applied to a blank and energy is built up and stored within the blank as the blank bends resisting our effort to accelerate it. At some point we release the line and the blank is allowed to unload it's stored energy. Some of that energy is used to throw our lure, multiplied by the applied force and length of the lever, great distances. However, some of the energy is absorbed by the blank as it straightens back out and momentum bends the rod back and forth until it finally comes to rest. The more quickly this process or returning to equilibrium occurs, the more efficient the process is from an energy-application standpoint.

Now, we can make a perfectly balanced offshore trolling rod, but who could cast baits from it great distances?

Another thought, Can a loaded rod be too efficient? Let me ask another way, Can we "underload" a rod making it difficult to cast? Sure can, try casting a 1/64 ounce jig with a salmon mooching rod. It just doesn't work because the forces are out of balance.

Building a good rod, or a great rod maybe, isn't so much trying to attain some ultimate light weight or perfect balance. Those are the proverbial trees in the forest, but not the forest (or great fishing rod). Getting all the factors, to work in concert towards a goal, is what's more important.

Too often we sweat specific details and lose sight of the bigger picture.

If the rod is to be used for bottom presentations such as T-rigs or jigs, do yourself a favor and balance it so the tip is neutral when you hold the rod as it will be fished. Don't worry about having weight hanging from it, when fishing the weight is on the bottom. You might want to consider not making this a permanent mod. A little weight at the right place can be your best friend. Many times I see guys fishing the most expensive, lightest possible rod and reel combos while wearing what looks to be a 3lb. wristwatch. Lynn

Should the rod be balanced with or without the reel and line on it, where should the balance point be located, should the balance point be the same no matter who uses the rod or how much weight it will be used to cast and no matter if the rod is cast with one or two hands?

I wonder about balance as well.I build mostly light weight spin rods and i hold them above the stem of the reel.Others hold them below and others have fingers either side.
So what is the right way to hold the rod and is their a right way ? Maybe we can educate people on the right way to hold a rod.Five different people
could hold the same rod and all get a different balance point you could do your head in thinking about this.Maybe we could enforce a standard way to hold rods then we could
get a standard balance point.I can feel a headache coming on.

cheers

Ray Balmforth
Figtree
NSW
Australia

Ray;
The correct way to hold a spinning or bait casting rod/reel combo; Is the way that feels ergonomically most comfortable to the user.

I compete in multi day tournaments sometimes fishing 4 or 5 days straight 8 plus hours a day.
I find that my fingers will get sore between them from where ever the stem is placed so I shift my hold a lot to give them a break.

That being said;
If you balance the rod so that it is balanced from where the hand is furthest placed back. Say total hand behind stem, it would be balanced- to- tip light (my preferred situation on slack line techniques) regardless of where it was held.
Would be much easier then forcing people to a proposed standard.

I think the proper way to look at sensitivity is not weight/stiffness, but stiffness/weight - so sensitivity increases with increasing stiffness or decreasing weight, not the other way around.

Be well.

Sid

Cameron Johnson Wrote:
If
> it makes the tip feel lighter than I would think
> it would help with sensitivity as it would be
> easier to feel added weight from the fish on the
> end of the rod?

And I agree, hence why I typically will add butt weight to a longer blank to put the fulcrum just in front of my grip (hand) position. Tip heavy rods with no weight added may be able to TRANSMIT more effectively according to some folks due to lighter overall weight, but the only thing that really matters when fishing is what you can feel in your hand.

Setting the fulcrum position by adding weight works quite nicely for this, where it should fall depends on preference and technique used. It gets confusing when we focus on the physical or mechanical properties of rods without considering the human use aspects. Your not so confused, you are merely observing and considering the reality that a rod is a tool used by human hands.

Though I place fulcrums pretty consistently where stated above, I will sometimes shift position depending on how I am fishing. At 10 am position on a shaky, the rod hand may creep up over the fulcrum point as it allows a more efficient shake. Dragging? I'm just behind the fulcrum in normal position as it naturally puts the rod angle where it works best.

When in doubt, study how you fish with a rod. This clears-up a lot of questions as to build elements and reveals some things we never really noticed about our fishing techniques.

this was all a lot of help thank you guys! I think I have a better understanding now!

Cameron, hopefully part of your better understanding is in realizing that for some types of fishing, using a balanced rod and reel combination isn't simply marketing by some mass producers that are trying to make a quick buck. And that it is something that not only bass anglers can benefit from, but something that every angler that employs similar tactics and equipment can benefit from, regardless of the species of fish they pursue.

Before I started building my own rods, and visiting this web site, I thought that the advertised benefits of micro guides for some types of rods, was aimed strictly at bass anglers. That it was just a way for some manufacturers to make a fast buck off of a segment of their market, that was susceptible to marketing hype. I now know that my previous way of thinking, couldn't have been further from the truth.

Just as using micro guides can benefit anglers other than bass fisherman, so can using a balanced rod and reel combination benefit other anglers as well.

As has been alluded to in more than one of the responses you've received in this thread, there is more to total rod performance and bite detection than just building the lightest, most sensitive rod possible. Adding a slight amount of weight concentrated as close to the butt of the rod as possible is going to have very little bearing on the actual performance of the rod, and can greatly enhance the performance of the entire rod and reel package.

If you're building rods that will be used to employ slack line techniques, I'd keep doing what you're doing. The only suggestion I'd make, is that you consider using tungsten worm weights for any weight you need to add. Not only does it concentrate the weight in a small area, you don't have to worry about them rusting if water were to somehow enter the rod blank.

Still curious about where the balance point should be, and whether this point should be determined with the reel attached or not, or whether casting style dictates balance point? Neither Google search nor responses here have provided any direction for me.

Phil, I add weight to place the fulcrum where I want it for fishing, not casting. With typical reel on rod. I suppose one could play with fulcrums/balance points with casting in mind and it may very well have some use. For my fishing, the cast is a few moments versus the wet retrieve which is really where I focus on the attributes of rod performance in hand. On most any rod, I can reach far beyond where needed and hit targets with more accuracy than needed thus the focus on retrieval.

Good question there, if one were primarily a distance caster or competitive caster the notion of all this stuff might change quite a bit. Never thought about that part. Considering the overall weight of long distance surf tackle and large fish caught, a long distance ocean flinger my very well have a POV quite different from a bass angler.

Bear in mind, when I speak of these issues, I'm a fella who typically builds on longer blanks for spinning rods and the effect of fulcrums becomes more noticeable. Lack of discourse on the web may well have to do with typical blank lengths used by most anglers. Competitive bass anglers being an exception as they often look to refine tackle beyond what most anglers consider.

Phil, unless you're using a cane pole, it should go without saying, that the balance point should be determined with the reel attached, and full of line.

Where the rod and reel combination balances is a matter of personal preference. I prefer the rod and reel to feel neutral in my hand, so I try and have the balancing point right at or slightly ahead of the reel seat's front hood. Some people prefer a tip light feel to their rod and reel, so their balancing point would be located further back on the reel seat.

As far as the question of whether or not casting style dictates the balance point goes .... since I feel that a well balanced rod and reel combination shows its biggest advantages when using slack line techniques, they are the only combinations that I take the time to balance.

Trying to balance a rod and reel for every type of cast an angler makes, and every size bait he or she may use, would not only be a waste of time .... it would be an exercise in futility.

joseph: I appreciate your thoughtful response. Can you suggest at what point on the blank a rod should balance when it's used for 1) worming 2) flipping 3) pitching 4) crank baits 5) drop shotting 6) free lining - and whether the weight of the reel being used influences the ideal balance point?

Well said David.

Phil Ewanicki Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Can
> you suggest at what point on the blank a rod
> should balance when it's used for 1) worming 2)
> flipping 3) pitching 4) crank baits 5) drop
> shotting 6) free lining - and whether the weight
> of the reel being used influences the ideal
> balance point?

That's the "study how you fish with the rod" part mentioned above and it sounds like you are speaking of a few different types of rods there. I might like slightly different fulcrum points than you or the person you might be building for, definitely something to speak to a given customer about and maybe experiment a bit with them.

That said, your description above on location sounds quite similar to what I like in longer spinning blanks. It is ever so slightly tip heavy, just enough to feel a bit of blank weight and not require downward force to lower the rod. As stated, I will shift hand position and build handle/blank transitions to accommodate this tendency. Others would prefer a different location and stationary hand positions with a dedicated technique rod. Some love slightly butt-heavy rods that set at 10:00am, I can't stand it there, but to each there own.

This part of rodbuilding is very angler specific and thus hard to generalize by technique for everyone and anyone. I wouldn't advise trying to nail down a technique/location list for builds in this area, you might get burned. If in doubt or question, that temporary butt weight idea is a mighty good road to travel. It's how probably most of us sorted OUR individual preferences.

Lynn. Thank you for your specific and convincing explanation of optimum rod balance. It sounds like an excellent reason for serious fishermen to buy a custom-made rod and it suggests that the "balance" claim of mass production rods is mostly hype, since balance turns out to be a personal judgement call. I hope rod builders adjust the balance point of a rod by moving the reel seat up or down, but not by adding weight to the blank.