OK if I choose not to use a direct blank thru reel seat where my fingers would rest on the blank and instead use the yellow hard foam arbors on a larger seat, how much sensitivity will I actually lose? If you wonder why I am thinking about going this route it is because most of the blank thru type seats are too small to comfortably fit in my hand. I like a larger seat and will be using a size 22 on a spinning outfit application.

Everything you add to a quality blank dampens it's action and therefore, the sensitivity of the finished rod. If a 22 reel seat is what you need to be comfortable, use smaller arbors, don't fill the empty space with useless epoxy. Use light weight guides, fewer of them, shorter wraps and lighter finish. Look at the foregrip and the butt grip to reduce weight. Do everything you can, the rest is out of your hands.

It depends on the weight involved, but if your seat and arbor combination weigh no more than the usually thicker walled direct mount seat then it's highly unlikely that the human hand is going to be able to detect any loss of feel or sensitivity. I am assuming, of course, that the arbors and seat will be well fitted and adhered so that the minimum amount of epoxy is required.

Technically, any change in materials alone will reduce sensitivity, but again in this instance we'd be talking about an amount that few human hands could detect. If you were to lose even 1% in sensitivity but doubled your comfort, it's a good trade-off to make.

..................

You'll never know the difference and if the bigger seat is more comfortable you might find that you consider it more sensitive in the long run.

Bob,
Build with the size reel seat and grip that fits your hand.

I do make a point that for my spinning rod setups that the fore grip is short or non existent, so that, when I wish, I can keep one finger on the blank.

By making the rods this way, and the grip of a shape that easily allows it; the ability to put the finger on the blank is essentially all that is needed; if one wants to keep bare contact with the blank.

Be safe

p.s.
The size 22 grip or basically a grip that fits inside the palm of about 1 1/8th inches seem to work very well.

If you have not tried one before; you might consider the size 17 American Tackle Aero grip. It has a nice palm filling swell that gives one the fit that many folks like.

The hidden hood grip is another way to get a nice fit on the palm, but is of a shape that allows good contact with the blank.

[www.rodbuilding.org]

The grip at the bottom of the picture is a hidden hood using a size 16 skeletal reel seat, that is buried in cork and then sized to fit nicely into the hand. The grips above are variations of the Aero reel seat using different grips and fore grips.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/16/2015 04:01PM by roger wilson.

Bob,

I agree with Roger, ergonomics comes first in this scenario. A grip that is uncomfortable will either not get used or after a while you'll be more concerned with the discomfort than the sensitivity gained by using a slightly lighter reel seat.

What are your building the rod for? If you want the lightest option, consider a TN handle. I like either woven graphite tubing or a sleeved grip with the reel wrapped on with thread and finish. Depending on the weight of your particular reel seat, trading it in for a plate seat could be an option giving you even more control of the grip OD and keep the ability to swap reels easily.

Joe

Can anyone suggest an article which lists the blanks and components which provide the most or the least sensitivity? It is not important to list rods used for trolling or rods used with bobbers, circle hooks, or monofilament line.

Phil,

You aren't going to find a specific recipe for the most sensitive rod, as it is a property of the complete build. However, if I were to set out to build the most sensitive rod, I would approach it this way.

1. Start with a high modulus blank, RX8+, Eternity^2, SCV, NFC HM, etc. Choose the one with the appropriate action and power for the application (choose the lightest if action and power are equal). These blanks will tend to have the highest stiffness to weight ratio, thus be the most sensitive to start with. Everything else we add to the blank will take away from the potential of this blank. Strip any finish from the blank if you want it to be the most sensitive blank it can be.

2. Select the smallest lightest guides for the application. The last time I checked, the original Batson Mini guides were the lightest ceramic guides available in ceramic (including options with Ti frames). The tiny little steel nano guides from Mud Hole are likely a tad lighter if you want to push it to the practical limit. Use as few guides as possible. In principle, one could take the approach of the just 2 or 3 guides and a tip top like some old long distance surf casters, but the high mod blank might not like that too well, particularly in fast and extra fast action models. NOTE: The length in feet minus 2 would be about as few guides as I would feel comfortable using on most freshwater rods. In practice I use more guides for better line control and to move more line on the hook set.

3. Wrap the guides with as little thread as possible, i.e. no trim wraps and only a couple wraps on the blank.

4. Finish the guides with at most 2 coats of Permaglos or Lumaseal.

5. Do not add decals, decorative wraps or coat bare sections of the blank with thread finish or other.

6. On spinning rods use a split TN handle in woven graphite in either Gardner's Hot Handle style or over 4 lb. foam core. Reel seats are quite heavy when you consider their impact on the total weight of the rod. Only use enough grip material to support the hand and allow blank contact with the thumb and fore finger. On casting rods, woven graphite over 4 lb. foam for grip sections. In principle, the casting grip can only be a little nub to transition the hand to the blank. When made properly, these grips will come in lighter than a cork grip of comparable dimensions. Additionally, they will have material properties closer to the blank than other grip material choices. NOTE: In practice, I prefer grips that satisfy my ergonomic preferences, so they are longer and heavier than the absolute minimum.

7. If a reel seat must be used, i.e. a casting rod, trim off excess threads, split the seat if necessary. Generally, a cut down exposed blank seat will come in lighter than a molded split seat.

8. When assembling components, ream each piece for a snug fit to minimize the amount of epoxy used. The foam cores will be smoother inside than cork resulting in less epoxy used as well, as the internal pits get filled in a cork grip.

9. When seating components remove excess epoxy just before the final seating. Excess epoxy finish or adhesive does nothing but add weight.

10. Don't add winding checks and bling. I tell people that if there is a winding check on one of my personal rods, it is there to hide something. A well fit component speaks for itself. NOTE: When I add winding checks and bling on rods for others, I admire the appearance, but never seem to be able to talk myself into adding it on my rods.

If you build with these ideas in mind, you can build the most sensitive rod you can. From there, it is time to consider the trade offs involved in a rod, dealing with guide number and size, grip size, shape, and material, artwork, etc.

Oh, and then when you are finished, take the price you want for the rod and double it. Sit the rod next to an identical one at the lower price and see which one your customers think is better :).



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/21/2015 10:20PM by Joe Vanfossen.

Thanks, Joe. Your recipe sounds much like the recipe for the best casting fly rod, although I have never heard any inquiries into the sensitivity of a fly rod.

Phil,

As much as fly fishermen and bass fishermen may discuss semantics and terminology, I think they tend to agree on one thing, and that is to have the best performing rod that suits the task at hand. In the end when we build a rod as a rod builder, the parameters we get to control are the same, blank choice, grip size shape, guide train layout, and seat location. Whether the goal is to have a rod that will efficiently cast a weighted line, or transfer the most feel from what is on the other end of the line, the same things that impact one impact the other. In the end, whether you are talking to heavy-handed beer drinking bubba or a wine sipping entomologist with a light touch, stereotypes aside, they are both asking for a rod that minimizes the loss of mechanical energy in the rod and a rod that will quickly damp itself when potential energy is released. The recipe above goes a long way to accomplishing this.

Joe: We deceive ourselves when we view our fishing rods as the only consequential element in the integrated system we fish with. The finest ultra light spin rod will not effectively cast 15 pound test Mason hard monofilament or a midge tied on a #22 hook. The finest bass rod will provide precious little sensitivity using monofilament with an 18% stretch rate or a six ounce rod with two more ounces of added weight to make it balance.