So I am fairly new to the rod building game been building rods for 2 years now. My question is about high module blanks im having a issue with clients breaking them. I have read up and realize that the higher the modules the thinner the inner wall of the blank and higher modules leads to a more sensitive blank. But to me it seems like the trade off to having a lighter more sensitive blank is you sacrifice durability. Most tournament anglers want a rod that's going to stand the abuse and have longevity. I guess my question is there any way to reduce the chance of a HM from breaking. I have had great luck with intermediate module blanks as far as durability goes don't think ive had a customer break one yet but I have had many client break HM blanks. Any input from you guys would be great.

Where along the blank are the breaks occurring?

Yes, higher modulus blanks will be slightly less durable. It's the nature of the beast, but you shouldn't be seeing them come back in large numbers unless your anglers are seriously abusing their rods. The blanks available to rod builders are quite good across the board these days.

I have a couple high modulus blanks that have been fished hard. The tips smacked into the head of the trolling motor while casting hitting objects walking rivers, and such and have withstood the use and light abuse quite well. You don't need to handle them with white gloves, but should show them some respect by not high sticking them, over-lining them, and treating them as a lure retrieval device. If the breaks are due to serial abuse, smack them over the head with the butt of the rod and teach them how to properly handle a rod :).

I have personally broke two myself they both broke in the dead center of the blank during a cast. I had two clients break them in the center also both said they were fighting fish when it happened. And I had one break down by the handle customer said he set the hook with a lot of force and it snapped instantly. I have yet to see an intermediate module break under normal fishing. I'm really not sure how to tell if the customer took care of the rod or not. I have a client I have built 9 rods for 8 of which were IM blanks and I recently built him a high modular top water rod that he sunk a bunch of money into he has only had it a month and he already snapped it. The 8 other rods he has had for a year now with no problems. Im not saying im against high modular blanks just from my experience I notice customers are breaking them in higher frequencies than IM blanks. I guess I need to convey to the customer the importance of taking care of there custom rod they just got built.

Two properties that I see contribute to more broken rods are Higher mod - thinner wall blanks, and Really fast actions. A blank with both properties is much more prone to break due to operator error.

After that it's a people thing. Some guys fish rods for years with no problem, and others show up regularly with broken rods, snapped off guides, etc.

If a rod is fairly new and breaks it may be a defect (but more likely not). If it's been fished hard for over a year and it breaks - it's highly unlikely it's a defect.

Thanks - Marc

Keep it simple - that's all I can handle!

With a stiffer (per weight) material, you don't need to use as much of it to get the same stiffness as in those lower modulus blanks. So you end up with a structure that is less substantial. The material itself is not inherently weaker or more fragile - you just don't have as much of it.

Yes the trade off for higher performance is often less durability. As a custom rod builder, you need to determine if your customer can or is even willing to exercise a bit more care and proper fish fighting technique in order to get the most out of the rod and have it hold up. Some of the tournament bass fishing shows have really given the average fishermen the wrong idea about rod use. Remember, the pros have access to plenty of rods should they break a few and their priority is getting the fish in the boat - not necessarily "fighting" the fish.

So yes, give your customer some tips on rod care and proper fish fighting technique, but also be aware that not every fisherman is going to be suited with a very high modulus rod. You have to dial in the right rod for the particular customer.

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Matthew, I'm not asking you to reveal brand names here. In fact, please don't do that in this thread. But are you having this experience with one, or several, brands? If you're more comfortable with a personal reply please email me directly.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/11/2015 09:03AM by Jeff Shafer.

Good morning,

My simple thought is this. As weight decreases sensitivity increases and that is good. That is one side of the balance bar. The other side of the balance bar is durability. As one side goes up the other side goes down.

The manufacturers are designing and making us fabulous blanks that give us great fish catching/fighting pleasure. Unfortunately anglers do abuse them, maybe unwittingly. Educate them when they come for a design meeting and also when they pick up their new custom. Show them how the tip goes from flex to no flex instantly. I also explain hoop strength to them and use a circular swimming pool vs a non circular swimming pool with out riggers on the sides. They seem to understand that.

Sometimes it seems to me that customers think the more expensive the blank is the more indestructible it is. Angl;ers do not understand that a rod fished between 3 and 5 o'clock puts more pressure on a fish being reeled in. The higher you go above 3 o'clock towards Noon produces less pressure on the fish and increases the pressure on the blank especially the tip. Hoop strength goes bye bye. The Long Island Fisherman magazine did a sturdy on this many years ago.

CUSTOMERS HAVE TO BE TAUGHT THAT WHEN THEY WALK OUT WITH THE NEW ROD IT IS THEIR RESPONSIBILITY TO TAKE CARE OF IT AS IT IS THEIRS.

Here in New York the fishing regs give us less fish to take home every year. (Wish I could say that I believe the poppy cock they use to make these regs). Politicians ???. However, many anglers want to have fun catching the fish so they go for lighter blanks. Years ago it was "meat sticks" to fill the cooler. (I don't subscribe to that either).

This topic will be around forever.

Capt Neil Faulkner

Good morning,

My simple thought is this. As weight decreases sensitivity increases and that is good. That is one side of the balance bar. The other side of the balance bar is durability. As one side goes up the other side goes down.

The manufacturers are designing and making us fabulous blanks that give us great fish catching/fighting pleasure. Unfortunately anglers do abuse them, maybe unwittingly. Educate them when they come for a design meeting and also when they pick up their new custom. Show them how the tip goes from flex to no flex instantly. I also explain hoop strength to them and use a circular swimming pool vs a non circular swimming pool with out riggers on the sides. They seem to understand that. I build on about 10 different manufacturers and anglers have broken blanks in almost all of them. The angler is the PROBLEM!!! The customer is not ALWAYS right. Yes, I do bend over backwards to try and keep them happy, ha, ha.

Sometimes it seems to me that customers think the more expensive the blank is the more indestructible it is. Angl;ers do not understand that a rod fished between 3 and 5 o'clock puts more pressure on a fish being reeled in. The higher you go above 3 o'clock towards Noon produces less pressure on the fish and increases the pressure on the blank especially the tip. Hoop strength goes bye bye. The Long Island Fisherman magazine did a sturdy on this many years ago.

CUSTOMERS HAVE TO BE TAUGHT THAT WHEN THEY WALK OUT WITH THE NEW ROD IT IS THEIR RESPONSIBILITY TO TAKE CARE OF IT AS IT IS THEIRS. Crash your new car a month after buying it and the car company is not part of the equation, unless a factory problem.

Here in New York the fishing regs give us less fish to take home every year. (Wish I could say that I believe the poppy cock they use to make these regs). Politicians ???. However, many anglers want to have fun catching the fish so they go for lighter blanks. Years ago it was "meat sticks" to fill the cooler. (I don't subscribe to that either).

This topic will be around forever.

Capt Neil Faulkner

Matthew,

Did the blanks that broke in the center come from the same order, or were they spaced out in separate orders?

As your friend noted, an overload failure is usually going to occur in the lower 1/3 of the blank. High sticking failures will usually occur in the upper couple of feet of the blank. A failure in the middle of the blank is not going to be as common without some sort of impact damage or crushing damage, especially in the scenarios described. If blanks from the same shipment are failing in the same location it could be due to damage that occurred during shipping.

As mentioned above there are two ways to add strength to a blank. One is to increase the OD of the blank. This allows for a lighter blank as a large OD blank will have higher hoop strength. The second is to use a smaller OD blank that is reinforced using more material, i.e. thicker walls. If two blanks have the same power, the smaller OD blank will be slightly heavier and more durable than the larger OD blank. I have no idea which blanks you are building on, and it's best not to mention the name in the thread, but if you are looking for smaller OD high modulus blanks that could be more durable, take a look at Batson's higher modulus blanks. They tend to have smaller ODs and thicker walls than some others and have treated me well.

Many bass fishermen have the mentality that you get what you pay for, and your clients could be assuming that the higher modulus blanks are more durable and treating them poorly. Unless you are rebuilding from scratch on their dime at full price, then after they break 2 rods, refuse to build more high modulus blanks for them, as there is more than likely some rod abuse happening.

One other thing to consider as a source for damage is in the way that the rods are transported. In a bass boat at high speed, rods and the lures and weights attached to them are going to bounce around in the rod lockers, and rods strapped to the deck with tips hanging off the back of the deck are going to be bounced around hitting the deck, and possibly have trolling motor pedals and other things bouncing on the rods as well. Impact damage can easily occur here and go unnoticed leading to the rod failing at some strange time down the road after enough fibers break.

Broken rods are no fun, and I hope you can manage to narrow down the issue, as high modulus rods are very nice and fun to fish, but if you need to back of to intermediate modulus rods for you and your clients, you are still fishing some awesome blanks that are more than capable of getting the job done.

Matthew,
Simply put, the HM blanks are more fragile than IM blanks.

It sounds like you have a group of hard charging clients, the use them hard in tournaments. In their cases, they are certainly much more interested in winning the tournament, than taking extra care of a rod.

For the folks that fish hard like that; I would simply suggest that you do not build rods for them that are of the HM thinner wall and more fragile construction.

Your statement reminds me a bit of the fellow who was banging is head on the wall and wondering why his head hurt. His head would not hurt if he stopped banging his head on the wall.

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i.e. if you have clients that have fished for years with IM blanks, but are consistently breaking blanks that are of the thin wall HM construction - don't build rods of that sort for those particular clients.

You said at the beginning of the post that you are not going to lecture the clients how these rods must be used. So, shy of not building rods for them at all; this is your better solution.

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Also, as others have said - there are many many blanks that do a wonderful job of catching fish and will make your clients very satisfied customers.

Good luck

Matthew,
You asked, "why do HM blanks break"?

They break for the very same reason that IM and LM blanks break.

The force that is placed on the rod exceeds their design and manufacturing qualities.

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The same thing will happen to IM and LM blanks. That is if any blank is stressed hard enough it will break.

I am sure that you have seen videos of blank manufacturers and their stress machines where they place every blank of their design and manufacture into their stress box, and flex the rod, until it snaps. Every rod has a breaking point. Some less, some more.

I would suggest that if there is a particular model blank or brand blank that is the root of the problems, that you

a. either stop using that model, or manufacture and
b. If you believe that it is a design or manufacture problem where every blank is breaking in the same spot - then contact the manufacture for further analysis of the broken blanks.

If there is a design or manufacturing problem with a particular blank it is quite likely that virtually every break will occur in the same place and will have the same appearance.

Over the years; I have personally run into two different blanks by a well known manufacture. In each case, these were brand new designs. When I contacted the manufacture about the issue, they said that they were working the problem and that others had had the same issue. They said that when the new design was completed and manufactured that they would send out replacement blanks for all blanks with this failure. In my case, it was a dozen blanks that had all failed in the identical spot doing the exact same thing.

After the new rods were built and delivered, no new broken rods and as far as I know are still in use today.

So, yes, sometimes bad designs or manufacturing techniques get into a blank and you need to separate those faults from the more general issue of very hard use exceeding the general abilities of the blank to function.

Be safe

I appreciate everyone's input and by no means am I trying to stir anything up. I do understand every rod has its limitations and they well all break no matter what material they are composed of. I am just simply trying to learn more about HM blanks and understand in what situations I would either recommend or not recommend a HM blank. And yes most of the HM blanks that have been broken were from series tournament anglers . I have also noticed the same customers have broken store bought HM rods to that's probably a clue that they don't take the best care of there rods. And to answer the question about if the model of the blanks were the same and if they were all in the same order, no all the HM rods that have broke were different model blanks, and were not ordered at the same time. Thanks for everyone's Input on the subject.

Sounds like you may be better off building on IM 7 blanks Better Durability Less come backs

Bill - willierods.com

Personally, I prefer the high mod blanks when fishing light line and light lures for the most part. In this case, the extra feel and the cost is worth it. When power fishing where contact with the lure is easily maintained, the blank material is less important, and a nice mid modulus blank should get the job done just fine. A well respected high mod blank can be a welcomed addition to the power fisherman, but if it is treated like a tool, then it may not be up to the task. Short presentations and heavy low stretch line is not a good scenario for a high mod blank.

That is fine - But These are turniment anglers and they are rough on there rods
If they KEEP breaking them and he PAYS for any replacement -- NOT GOOD

Bill - willierods.com

Matthew,
As I and a good many of the builders here are tournament anglers, you simply need to explain to the individuals proper usage. I know I've yet to break any of my High Modulas stuff. I have Batxon XP8's, St. Croix SCV's, North Fork HM's, Hydra's, HM MHX's, Phenix K2's and Lamiglass XMG's and I am sure there are others I've forgot to list. I fish roughly 2-5 tournaments a month and I am not gentle on my stuff by any means, I do however make it a point to try and never high stick any of my rods or push them beyond reasonable limits. You might possibly go fishing with them for a sort period if feasible and see how they are handling their equipment. You can even take some rods with you as demos for them to try out and you may be able to eek out some more sales.

Once you explain how to properly handle equipment make sure they know they are responsible for any future breakage issues. I've had to do it for some of the guys here that are fishing more of the upper level tournaments throughout the state and once they understand it is not a free ride, miraculously they've quit having breakage problems. Yes, I still have orders for more rods, a little patience and calm temperament will go a LONG way in keeping them happy and coming back.

Hope this helps,

Tom

Thomas,
In addition, I tell the folks to never use the rod to tear a hook loose.
Rather, open the bail, lay the rod down, grab the line with your hands and tear the hook loose or break the line.

Rods are not designed to either lift fish into the boat, nor to tear hooks loose from the bottom of the body of water.

You can easily build a blank from a very high modulus material that is unbreakable. or pretty close to it. But the design required results in giving up the performance benefits that most anglers are looking for when they shell out the additional money for a higher modulus blank.

However, some companies do this and generally when you find a very high modulus blank that also features tremendous durability you're also looking at a blank with a smaller OD and thicker walls, which then requires more material to get the stiffness back up and results in additional weight.

Most companies therefore try to arrive at a good balance that allows them to make the most of the higher modulus materials but at the same time using a design that offers what they feel is adequate durability for anglers that are prepared to at least treat the rod in a reasonable fashion.

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Tom was that not the train of thought behind the old GUSA blanks?

Somewhat, yes. They did a little more than just build thicker walls with the dual helix construction, but no doubt it added durability but at the expense of additional weight.

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