As I imagine most of you do, I file or grind my guide feet prior to wrapping to get the smooth transition from the blank up on to the guide foot. On a trip last year we got caught in some ugly weather and several of the rods in our "arsenal" were damaged. My son informed me that I need to find a different way to do my guides, as a lot of them showed signs of rust. I showed him some Calstar production rods we have that are exhibiting rust also; not just the rods I had wrapped, so the problem isn't unique to me. I told him stainless steel guide frames aren't rust proof; just rust resistant, and salt water is obviously a harsh environment even if you are careful to rinse everything down after an outing. He told me not to grind the feet on the new replacement guides, I told him I thought he was nuts.That said, what do you other folks do? Prep them as I do or leave them intact? And if you prep them, are you using anything to cover the exposed metal prior to wrapping? Thanks for your input!

Ever try the Alps guides? I've had good luck with them.

David,
Except for maybe Titanium alloy framed guides, all guides will be attacked by salt environments. I use Alps 316 stainless guides guides, but I don't rely on them not rusting. I believe in rinsing, washing with warm soapy water, rinsing, and then drying the rod after each use. Back in 1961 I built a spinning surf rod. I used Mildrum steel guides. As I always do, I filed these guides down before wrapping. About four years ago, I decided to rebuild that rod using the NGC system.

Once when I was fishing off of a rock ledge in Northern California I was knocked off the ledge and my rod was submerged in the salt water and the butt guide was bent. I straightened the guide and fished with it for many years. When I stripped I the rod down for the rebuild I found no signs of any corrosion except at the solder joint on the carbide tip top. I still feel the best way to prevent rusting or any other corrosion is to rinse, wash,rinse, and dry.

Mike Blomme

David

Review your assembly process, If you used color preservative could it be possible that the preservative was not completely dry prior to applying the finish coat of epoxy? The surface may feel or seem dry but under the wrap the guide may be still be moist and over time could have caused the guide feet to oxidize..
After prepping the threads with preservative I let the rod sit over night in a warm dry place before I apply the finish to the wraps.

Just a Thought.

John

Also to add
Cover the CP Completely and then onto the blank
On dubble foot guides I coat inside the feet so the back of the feet have a good coat Then coat the threads on the feet
On single foot guides I coat the thread then also with a tiny brush or a tooth pick put a coat after the post to make sure the post has a coat all around it
May not stop it but will help

Bill - willierods.com

Hello David.

I just paint them back the same color, and if I have to cover a chrome or ss I use a bit of fingernail polish, just be sure you let it dry good.

Tight Lines.

Bob,

New Bern, NC.

If you fill in the tunnel behind the foot frame, that should prevent rusting of the filed or ground foot. The frames and guides should be rinsed in fresh water after every use. On the day of use, not a week later.

Thanks for all the helpful tips. I always try to "fill the tunnels" on a guide with finish (I've been using Threadmaster Lite for the last few months and like it very much) and I had thought that I had allowed any CP'd threads to dry completely prior to putting on the finish, but can't verify that. I'll make sure that CP'd thread gets at least an overnight before I start with the epoxy, and I don't like to use CP unless I want a certain color that won't happen without it. When I'm doing CP or epoxy finish, I keep my shop between 75-80 degrees with 35-40% humidity during the drying period.

Mike Blomme: it appears that most of the rusting is at the solder joints where the frame meets the ring, especially on the production Calstar rods. I haven't had any rusting issues with builds I've done for freshwater use, and didn't expect to. This is entirely a saltwater problem. I can try to attach some photos if you want.

These are all boat rods. I know the Calstar rods have the Fuji Hardloy guides. I have been using Fuji Alconite and SiC with the stainless frames for all of my builds, but with the widespread rusting issues I'm seeing I might be looking at changing to Alps, PacBay, or American Tackle. I know I am going to use titanium alloy guides on at least two of the renovations. Didn't want to invest that much, but it might be money well spent.

Bob Guist: so you are re-coating the filed areas. Do you only use fingernail polish, or other things as well such as paint? I have some black automotive touch up paint and some Testor's enamel that I could try if you feel that would be a good move.

Bill, it sounds as if you are being extremely careful to cover all threadwork and making sure the tunnels are full.

Randolph, I usually am very careful to wash all my tackle down AFTER a trip. On the last long range trip I went on, there was a guy who was hitting all his rods and reels at least a couple of times a day with a spray bottle that I suspect had Salt-A-Way in it. Maybe the interval between embarking on a 7-10 day trip and getting back to port is too long without spritzing down my gear. Does this seem to be the case?

So if I am correct, most of you are just filing/grinding your guides and wrapping without replacing the protection that was removed from the guide feet after prepping, other than Bob.

The only time that I have had a problem with rust was when I used inexpensive guides on a test blank. Later I used the rod for fishing and a guide rusted through the frame's ring section that holds the guide.

I do not use CP.

"I know I am going to use titanium alloy guides on at least two of the renovations. Didn't want to invest that much, but it might be money well spent. "

David, be careful in your selection. While some titanium guides may reduce corrosion, they may be too soft and less durable. There is nothing like traveling 5,000 + miles and finding your butt guide damaged. The ring was intact in the bag. I had brought along tools and was able to straighten out the bends in the frame and ring section, and glue the ring into place.

Don Becker

Hi David,

You mention rust where the frame meets the ring; how much rust was on the areas you had prepped? When I prep guide feet, any areas I have sanded are encased by epoxy (I don't use CP either). Since your commercial rod also rusted, I'm just curious how much rust from the one you built, is being attributed to the prepping?

And yes, metal can rust quickly, so 7-10 days can be detrimental.

Take care,

Chris



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/16/2015 05:23AM by Chris Herrera.

Hello David.

I just use the fingernail polish for when I need "clear" the rest of the time I use paint, and I have used many different paints from Testor's to Krylon primer, whatever you can find to match the guide color.

Be sure you use as thin a coat and still get coverage as you can and let whatever you use dry well or the epoxy will ether seal in moisture or just eat the paint away while applying.

Tight Wraps.

Bob,

New Bern, NC.

Bob, are you thinning the paint, or using it straight? I presume if you are thinning it to get a thin coat you are using the recommended thinners for the individual paints.

Hello David.

As time goes by the paint (usually Testors) will tend to dry out so I do occasionally have to add a few drops of Testors thinner, when the bottle is new or still fresh I use it straight from the bottle.
When I use the Krylon I spray it into the lid and dip the tips of the guides into the paint and then dry them on a piece of cardboard (a paper towel tends to stick to them).

Tight Wraps.

Bob,

New Bern, NC.

Thanks, Bob.

Guess I don't understand how water is getting through the finish to allow the corrosion, but I don't fish in saltwater either.
I was under the impression you do not run CP off the wrap of a guide and onto the blank. For decals it's OK but not guides. Just something I saw on a tutorial though, not the bible!

Whoops, slow reaction on the submit bar.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/19/2015 12:51PM by JIM MOWL.

X2 Donald Becker. There is at least one well known brand of titanium guide that I will never use again due to structural weakness/very easily bent/broken. Fujis are bulletproof as are the Alps, in my opinion.

Re the Jim Mowl comment on how the water gets in. I don't know either, but I suspect finish imperfections around the foot or minute cracks in the finish. I had a rod that I thought I had finished perfectly, took it to Canada, left it in the boat overnight on a couple rainy nights, and noticed when I got home that the finish was cloudy. I left it for a couple weeks and it cleared. I refinished and no trouble yet, although I haven't left it in the boat overnight.

Every stainless steel is not equivalent for corrosion resistance. I believe 316 is the best, but I'm not even sure that all 316 is the same. I do know that the Alps 316 that I've used on rods, one used regularyly in salt water, are holding up very well with no visible corrosion under careful examination. The rod is treated well as Randolph recommends. 304 is not as highly recommended for salt water applications by some makers, but as before, I'm not sure all 304 is the same. There may be grades of it that are as good as 316, but I doubt it. I think there is a substitute for objective testing processes coupled with personal experience. Unfortuneately some don't tell us what tests they use, and the all the ones that do don't use the same exact testing processes. What I don know for sure is that if the guide is inexpensive and it just says "stainless steel," it is not suitable for any rods I make, salt or fresh.

Hey Michael,

Regarding the stainless steel testing, I paid a very high price to find a quick check.

What may be sold as stainless steel suitable for marine use may not be the quality or makeup that you would expect.

I did purchase parts that were supposed to be stainless steel for marine use. Breakage started happening and shops returned unused merchandise. Most of the parts were stored indoors, however one was left in my garage. After 6 months or so, a brown hue started to develop on the part stored in the garage.

When coming across the part with the brown hue, a light finally came on. The carbon content was high (nickle content low). I went upstairs and grabbed a 1/4" diameter fishing reel magnet. Not only did it stick to the part, it lifted the part. To my knowledge the magnet should not stick to 316 stainless steel.

Knives require a high carbon content to maintain a sharp edge. I do not know of a place on a fishing reel or rod where a sharp edge is desirable.

The amount that a magnet will stick to stainless steel (not at all to lifting the item) will mostly depend upon carbon and nickle levels in the stainless steel.

Regarding the above, I am very open to further input for correction or clarification.

The size magnet I used can be purchased from Apex Magnets.

Here are the magnet specifications:

5 mm x 3 mm Disc Magnets N48 Rare Earth;Size: 5 mm diameter x 3 mm thick discs.Nickel (Ni) Plated (silver-like shine);Grade: N48 - Extremely powerful magnetic material;Pull Force is approximately 2.28 pounds

Hope this helps,
Don

Don Becker

I'm not sure what your point is. Some stainless steels will be attracted to magnets and some are not. Here is an article on it. [www.scientificamerican.com]

Both ss304 and ss316 are austenistic, which means they do not react to a magnet. These are the two most used types of SS used in guides. Knife blades and what makes a good one may or may not relate to what makes a good guide. I remember when it was thought that no stainless steel could make a good knife blade, but I think now there are many good SS knife blades.

Regarding corrosion resistance, it appears for certain kinds of corrosion, carbon level is very important, lower being better. I've been involved in metallurgy for many years, but don't consider myself an expert in SS corrosion resistance. But I think it's important to not to try to extrapolate corrosion resistance from a bunch of observations that may or may not be relevant.

If you look at the spec sheets for 304 and 316 you find that the only difference between them is that 316 has molybdenum, and the stated reason is that this provides better corrosion resistance in a choride environment, like salt water. Within the range of specs for different elements, like carbon, there can be differences in corrosion resistance, and it could be that guide makers may be tweaking carbon level for better corrosion resistance.

But the bottom line appears to be that ss316 should be better than ss304 for salt water corrosion, but other factors (like carbon level) may shift the resistance within the two basic ss types being considered.

Another factor that is way beyond the basics of metallurgy is the fact that cold working can affect the materials to the point that micro anodic cells can be set up. You probably are familiar with the sacrificial anodes that are a part of the corrosion protection "packages" on outboard engines. Little blocks of material that are sacrificed so that the aluminum and steel in the outboard engine are not. Replaceable every few years. Cold working a material can set up micro anodic cells in the material that will result in corrosion in very specific areas of the material in a salt water environment. I expect that guide frames are cold formed and therefore there is the possibilitiy for anodic cells to be created. How the different types of ss react to cold work, I don't know, but there could be a difference. And some may be better than others. Whether this is a factor in corrosion resistance of guides, I don't know, but I do know that just forming the barb on a ss salt water hook can set up a cell that will ultimately result in the hook failing at the barb, a very low stress area of the hook.

Corrosion resistance of a complex guide is an issue that is way beyond what most of us are capable of understanding, so to try to relate observations of the carbon level of a knife and the reaction of a magnet to corrosion resistance of a guide may be a futile exercise. I think we need to keep objective test results and our own expert observations up front in the determinations of which guides are superior in corrosion resistance.

The findings for my product are subjective as I have no standards to go by.
Good = no magnetic attraction, Marginal = some minor attraction, Poor = able to lift a part of the item (one end), Bad = able to lift the entire item.

I checked about 200 items. About 10% fell into the good category, 40% Marginal, 35% Poor, and 15% Bad.
The above is simply a guess as they were split into two stacks (Good/Marginal & Poor/Bad) the stacks were about equal in size.
Of the items that failed, all fell into the bad category (able to lift).

Just from curiosity, I checked several items around the house.
Butcher knife highly attracted to magnet
Table knife blade attracted
Reel parts not attracted
Stainless steel bands on Fuji reel seat no attraction
Fuji concept guides, Of the several rods checked almost all not attracted, one center leg attracted, one where the leg appears to be welded to frame slight attraction
Brand X guides, all attracted in varying degrees (one location had a guide replaced due to its rusting through)

I have never dealt with sacrificial anodes on a outboard motor. Sacrificial anodes and cathodic protection on a submarine, Yes. That was a very long time ago.

Don

Don Becker