As the thread title says, I'm a little confused about something I read in some past threads in regards to shortening a rod blank, and its affect on the action of that blank.

I'm in the process of putting an order together to build my first two rods. One that I've talked about exstensively in past threads, and one that I mentioned in passing in one of the threads I posted to. In order to get the type of action and the rod length I'm looking for, this second rod is going to have to be built on blank that will have to be shortened in length.

What has be confused is some of the responses I've read in past threads, when the question of shortening a blank has been raised. My thinking is that trimming from the tip would have the relative effect of speeding up the action, and trimming from the butt would have the relative effect of slowing the action. I realize that trimming a rod blank has other effects on a blank's characteristics. But I'm merely interested in what your beliefs are concerning the action of the blank.

While I will greatly appreciate any responses, I'm hoping for responses that are a little more expletive than ..... trimming from either end will slow the action, or trimming from both ends will slow the action. I'm interested in the whys of why you feel like you do.

Also, I'm curious if anyone has had any experience with MHX rod blanks that are designated as "shooter" blanks? More specifically a CS723-MHX. I plan on building a new jerkbait rod sometime this year, and I'm looking for a 6' blank with a fast action and some bend throughout its mid section. The blank number I quoted above is labeled as medium heavy power, but the line rating of 8-12# test suggests that it may have the bend in the midsection that I am looking for. Any thoughts?

Trimming from either end will result in a blank with a slower action. It's not why I "feel like I do," it's just the fact.

Action is defined as where the blank initially flexes. (Keep in mind that even a fast action blank will flex down into the handle area if you put enough load on it - the key word is "initially.") If it flexes mostly in the upper 1/3rd, then it's considered a fast action blank. If trimming from either end results in the blank now initially flexing in the upper 1/2, you have created a medium action blank. And that's what will happen as you shorten the blank and effectively increase the amount of area that will initially flex.

Now if you don't believe this, then string up a blank according the Common Cents System - you can't fool it. Measure the Action Angle (AA) and record that number. Now slide the butt to the rear of the support point, where it would be if you trimmed it from the butt and remeasure (remember, as the blank is now shorter the distance you will deflect it will be reduced accordingly) and record the new AA. You'll find it to be lower than before. Do the same from the tip - slide the line you're weighting from down the tip to the point where you're thinking of trimming it. Record the new AA. Again, it will be lower than before.

..............

David,
Tom is correct.
But you are probably really not interested in the blanks action rather than power.
A fast action blank, as Tom stated, will lock-up "faster" than A "slow" action blank. i.e. more towards the tip.
If you trim from the top you will eliminate some of the more flexible part of the blank so it will be more powerful. But it will lock-up deeper into the blank making it slower.
If you trim from the butt you will be eliminating the more powerful section of the blank so it will not be as powerful. But because the blank is shortened from the butt it will flex more towards the butt than the original blank - making it slower.
Of course it all depends on how much you cut off.
Herb

Dave,

You have some good responses. Remind me next month at the ORBS Gathering, and I'll show you how it works.

The reason trimming from either ends slows the action is tied to the fact that the action is defined as a measurement based on the total length of the blank. Trimming from the butt means that you shorten the length of the blank, so to deflect the tip the same percentage of the overall length of the rod means that you do not load it as deeply, hence the slightly slower action. Trimming from the tip removes the most limber part of the rod, so in addition to the argument associated with the butt trim, you are going to affect the minimum (and the upper to an extent) casting weight range.

If you like the characteristics of a rod, but just wish it were shorter, trim it from the butt. If you want a stiffer tip, trim from the tip, but relatively small tip trims can kill a good rod. Just think of what happens to a rod after you break it off at the end of the tip top.

Ok .....after re-reading the Common Cents Info, I am no longer confused. Honestly, I had read the Common Cents Info, linked near the top of this page, before asking this question. My confusion came from this line in that article.

"The previous experiment with the playing card clearly indicated that if the butt section of a rod is progressively strengthened, the IP of that rod is increased and its action
becomes faster."

After re-reading it, it's clear that I didn't read it carefully enough. Trimming the tip of a blank does nothing to strengthen the butt section of a rod. As Herb said, it merely adds power to the tip.

Tom, as I used a response you posted to a similar question in a past thread, as a basis when I asked for the whys of why you would feel this way. I just want to say that I wasn't calling you out. I have the utmost respect for your opinions and knowledge, and I sincerely appreciate all of the help you have given me in past threads. I was just having a hard time wrapping my head around what you were saying. I hope there are no hard feelings.

Tom and Herb, thank you both for your responses. I truly appreciate them, and I'm definitely much clearer in my head as a result. And Joe, I'd like to thank you as well. With our history, I'm pretty sure you have an idea of the rod that I'm planning on building. And yes I'd definitely like to talk to you more about this at the ORBS gathering. It just means that I'm going to have to wait a month before I place this order. lol

Thanks again for the replies everyone. I truly appreciate it.

Not a problem at all. There is so much variance and misunderstanding of what the term "action" means that you can never be sure everyone is on the same page.

.............

The C723-MHX has a fast action. Fast action flexes in the upper tip area. That would relate to the upper 1/4th of the blank flexing in the tip area. It does not have flex to the mid-section. Mid-section flex would be moderate action.

Bob McKamey
Mud Hole Custom Tackle
bobm@mudhole.com

I think that when talking about trimming from the butt we are missing a point that is an artifact (if that's the right word) of the CCS system which characterizes the power and action based on the total length of the blank, but the real issue is how the blank is characterized if the back end of it is considered the place where your hand contacts the blank. I haven't really gotten this clear in my mind, but what hangs off the back of your hand is only an issue when you stick that butt into your stomach to fight a fish or use two handed casting.

I had to trim an inch and a half off the butt of a blank once because I made the length below the grip too long and it kept getting hung up on my bicep. I couldn't tell the difference in fishing the rod, other than it didn't get hung up any more.

Just some thoughts that have been in and out of my brain for a while.

The back end isn't where your hand contacts the blank unless you grab the very end of the rod. The back end is the butt, or the point where you plan to trim it. Where your hand contacts the blank is the "point of effort."

The CCS gives you relative measurements so you can compare one to another. As long as your mounting situation is the same each time, then sliding the blank back or forward, measuring blank length from the rear support to the tiptop, will give you results that are relative to one another. Power and action are inherent across the entire blank length for the purpose of characterizing the blank. The CCS spells out the distance for the mounting process. If you want to know more about the specific power and action available at any given portion of the blank, then you would turn to the CCS "Big Picture" which will give you that information. But no matter what you do, if you trim the blank, the action will become slower.

................

Why not try to find a blank that meets your needs. There are so many out there that I wouldn't think it would be a problem to find a proper blank without trying to make one do by cutting. I have trimmed blanks but usually to fit a specific need such as fitting into a gunnel rod holder. 3"s off the butt. The person liked the rod, but needed to make it fit his boat. No other matching blank was available.

Thank you Tom. Thank you Bob, Thank you Michael, and thank you Randolph, for your replies, Everyone was very helpful. Since I'm having difficulty finding a blank that may suit my needs, I've decided to go in a different direction. I know what I want to do is possible.

I actually already own a rod that has all the characteristics I'm looking for. Right down to the 6' finished length. It's an old Shimano Convergence casting rod, that I love. So why not just strip that blank and just build a new rod, right? Eureka .... I can !!! Something hit me as I was thinking about how I wish I could just strip the blank and put new components on it. The problem I have with rebuilding the current rod, is that it has a preassembled handle. I mean a, stick the end of the blank an estimated 3" into the reel seat, with rear grip already attached, and glue it. The thought that hit me was ..... why can't I just strip everything off the blank and slip on a piece of another rod blank, to lengthen it? It would allow me to put an actual blank through, reel seat.

I've done a lot of reading on this site since I've joined, and I had a feeling I had seen this topic before, so I started searching past threads. In one of them I found a reference to an article in the library. Extending Rod Blanks.

Tom that is a great article, and the more I read about where the optimum position of an extension would fall, the type of fit and the materials that scream "use me as an extension" That is exactly what I'm going to do. I'm going to put an extension on the rod I currently own. I have another Shimano Convergence from the same era that I was going to be turning into reamers. It has a Fuji TCSM style reel seat, and after I went out to the kitchen and cut the butt cap off ... the blank I exposed is the same color as the rest of the rod. The ID of the butt is visibly larger than the OD of the other blank where it enters the handle. Perfect oversleeve candidate. Although, once I get a digital caliper (probably this week) I'll have to check the wall thicknesses of each piece. Tom, once I do that I'll be back with a question for you. lol

I gotta admit, I'm feeling pretty darn happy right now. Giddy even. So cancel all the questions I had pertaining to a possible rod blank choice. All I need to do is pick up a rear grip (may make it split) a reel seat, a foregrip, and a guide set and tip top. The blank is a chocolate brown, so I'm going to need a couple of different thread colors as well.

I can't believe I didn't think of this long ago. I was caught up in the search for the newest, latest, best blank you can buy for the purpose, and I had it here all along. I'm going to call it my mid life crisis rod. Still the same guy, just dressed up in fancier clothes. lol


See ya guys, And once again, I truly truly appreciate all your help. I've said it before, and I'll say it again ......... I love this place



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 02/17/2015 01:38PM by David Baylor.

Well .... my idea of just extending the blank with the characteristics I like, with a piece of the blank from another rod I own, isn't going to work out as I had hoped. I went ahead and stripped the guides off the rod that uses the preassembled handle assembly, cut the grip off of it, and the bare blank I was left with is 61 3/4" long. I cut the blank on the rod I was going to make the extenstion out of so I could slide the other blank inside of it. It only slid into the extension piece, 6" Giving the rod the two pieces would produce a length of 5' 7 3/4". Not long enough for what I want to build. So it's back to the drawing board.

Again, thank you to everyone for their responses, They were and are always very much appreciated.