Hi all,

Once again, I'm new to rod building, and having only put new guides on three of my own rods, a virtual rookie when it comes to wrapping guides. So I hope this doesn't en up being a stupid question. Just a short back story to explain where this question comes from.

About eight years ago I had a rod that needed new guides, and the blank refinished. One of the guys that fished the same tournament circuit that I was fishing at the time, was a rod builder, so I had him do it for me.

In talking about what I was wanting him to do, he brought up the fact that he thought the use of color preserver had an affect on the strength of a guide wrap's bond, with the rod's blank. He stated that color preserver soaking through the thread would coat the blank under the wrap, and therefore the expoy used to finish the guides would be bonding to the coat of color preserver, and not the blank. It seemed to make sense to me. When I told him I'd be wanting him to use black thread, he said that the use of color preserver wouldn't be needed.

Having only used black thread for the small number of guides I've wrapped, I have yet to use color perserver. My question is, is there anyone that feels similar to what this rod builders beliefs are? I ask because I'm sure there will come a time that I want to use color preserver for a rod that I'm building, and I'd like to know if I can expect a chance of a guide becoming loose as a result of using a color preserver?

I didn't have any problems with the guides coming loose on the rod he put the new guides on, but to be brutally honest, I didn't use the rod very much after he put the new guides on. I say brutally because despitte my request for the same size guides in the same locations as the stock guides were, he put bigger guides on it, and in different locations. And their locations certainly weren't placed using a static load test. Prior to him replacing the guides, I loved that rod. I knew its casting characteristics perfectly, and could put a bait virutally anywhere I wanted to with it. Afterwards ...... well, let's just say that it was the first rod I replaced the guides on last year, and it is now back in its special place in my heart.

Thanks in advance for any thoughts or opinions you may care to share.

RodMaker did some tests years ago. The relative difference in strength between wraps with and without CP is roughly 10%, but in either case the wrap is more than strong enough to hold the guide. Strong enough, in fact, that the guide frame itself will deform before you can twist or tear the guide off the rod. In other words, it's a non issue. CP won't cause guides to "become loose." I even have a few test rods where the thread has been treated with CP, but never epoxied and they've been fished quite a bit with no ill effects. The thread holds the guide, the top coating protects the thread.

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When using CP on thread I always put a good coat on -- Then you can see the CP soaking into the thread
Now Don't let it dry I turn the guides to the side and try to fill the pocket along the foot with the CP I do this cause when dry it will not soak in just lay on top so I do this while still wet

Then like said the thread holds the guide

Bill - willierods.com

David,
Take an old broken rod and do a bunch of test wraps.

Then, coat 1/2 of them with color preserver before coating with epoxy.
Just use epoxy for the other 1/2.

Let them sit for a month and then remove them.

Then you can draw your own conclusions, using your own wrapping and finish techniques as a vehicle.

CP has an effect on the adhesive properties of the epoxy to the rod. How much is rather dependent on how the rod is wrapped as well as how the cp and the finish is applies. So, do you test and let us know what you find, when you use your wrapping and finish techniques.

Good luck

Thank you for your responses Tom and Bill. I appreciate them very much. I'm actually glad to hear that there is a difference in the strength of the wraps with and without CP. And even though as you said Tom, that the guide frame will deform for the guide rips off. The difference in strength is nice to know.

Bill, thank you for the tip about applying additional CP in the area along the guide foot. That's something I'll definitely do when the time comes that I use CP.

One additional question if I may? I've seen guide foot adheasives available in various suppliers catalogs. They seem to be something that may prove to be worth while for holding running guides with their short feet in place. They also tout a bit of cushioning between the guide foot and rod blank that is supposed to protect the blank from possible damage. What are your general feelings about the use of such a product?

I plan on ordering some when I place my next order, but I'm just trying to get a feeling on what I can expect out of it?

Thank you once again for your responses and thank you to anyone else that chimes in on the subject of the guide foot adhesive.

Rather than using guide adhesive, consider the use of rubber bands or rings to hold small rods to blanks for wrapping.

You can order them on line from many different sources or @#$%& sites. Get a variety of sizes, and before starting to place guides, slip on the required number of O rings on the blank to hold any of the small guides needed.

Have a sharp pointed nipper on hand, so that as you are wrapping, you can use the nipper to cut the ring as you get part way up the guide foot when wrapping.

Measure the "typical" diameter of the rod blanks where you will be placing rings for wrapping and buy the appropriate size O rings needed. For myself, I typically use the O rings on very small Ice rod blanks and as a result, I use a lot of O rings that have a .1 or .2 inch diameter hole size.

[www.rodbuilding.org]

[www.rodbuilding.org]

Notice that I only use the elastic bands on the smaller guides. For the larger guides, I use 1/8th inch wide masking tape. I buy masking tape in 1/8th inch and 1/4 inch widths for many uses around the rod shop including guide holding and tag end thread holding as i wrap.

I don't like to use adhesive on the guides, because I may change my mind about position, as well as rotation and just find that tape and elastic bands work so much better.

Good luck

David


The wrap secures the guides to the blank and in THEORY is all that is required, But In the real world the wrap is exposed such things as fraying, nicks, rubbing, exposure to solvents and other unfriendly fluids, ETC, if the wrap is to endure the demands or abuse placed on it, then protection is required and the top coat addresses this issue.

The top coating

1) it solidifies the wrap and adds strength to the assembly.
2) it protects the wrap from the abuses mentioned above insuring long life.
.
I am sure there are other benefits the top coat adds to the final product.

To answer your question, CP if used will not compromise the integrity of the assembly.


John

Thank you Roger. I really like the idea of the O rings. After reading your post and looking at the pictures you had linked, I looked a little more closely at my Mudhole catalog and see that they sell surgical tubing in varying IDs for the very purpose of holding guides on. I think I'm going to go that route. I've used the narrow masking tape that most of the rod building books seem to mention, and I found that when removing the tape that the guide would move. Simply cutting the bands should eliminate that.

Thank you very much for posting that. Much appreciated. And I just may do what you suggested as far as performing a test of my own. That way I could possibly have some useful information to share on this web site myself, instead of asking all these questions. lol



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/06/2015 12:33PM by David Baylor.

Guide adhesives are just low temperature hot-melt glue stick, available at any craft store.
The grip isn't very strong, and the "glue" rubs off without leaving a mark, so you can easily adjust the guides before or after they are wrapped.
I started using these adhesives for holding single foot mini-guides, but now use it on all guide feet.
At first I used too much and found it a bit messy.
Once I got a better feel for the amount needed, I found it faster and easier to use than fooling around with bits of tape, or other things that had to be removed.

John ... thank you very much for your response. It reinforces what Tom said in his post. Thank you very much for taking the time to post it. I truly appreciate it.

Garry ..... I'd also like to thank you for taking the time to respond to my question concerning guide foot adhesives. I definitely appreciate it. I'm going to end up ordering both the guide foot adhesive and the surgical tubing material to make the bands out of that Roger mentioned, and give both methods a try. With all of the great ideas I've gotten from member's posts, I'm sure I'll be able to come up with a method that works beautifully.

Thank you all again for your participation. Someday I hope to repay the favor.

David I often test a new set guides on my various fly rods in the summer and I only attach them by a simple wrap, a Forhan locking wrap on single foots and I coat them with ONE coat of color preserver. If I'm not rough on them they hold up all summer!

Putting guides on and then removing them isn't going to tell you whether or not the guide/wrap is suitable for fishing use. No fish will ever jump out of the water and use a knife or razor to slice a guide off. So if you're going to use ease or difficulty of removal as a measure, remove the guide by pulling it off with fishing line, or pliers for that matter.

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Steve ..... thank you for mentioning the Forhan locking wrap. I had noticed it in the library section of this site, but I hadn't read it until after reading your post. I really like the idea of having thread assist in keeping single foot guides from pulling out, It was a concern of mine when wrapping the guides I've wrapped to date. While I hate to admit it, I actually put a dab of finish in front of the guide with the thought that it would help hold the guide in, if I hadn't wrapped the guides right. On a couple of guides I found myself using a razor blade to cut some of the excess finish from that area.

It looks as if that wrap may take a couple of times of using it to get comfortable with it, but it doesn't look that hard at all. And actually, I've wrapped guides so infrequently that it takes me a couple of "practice" wraps to get the feel for it. So incorporating the Forhan wrap should be fairly easy.

Thank you very much for mentioning that. I truly appreciate it.

Once again this forum has not disappointed me. Can it get any better than this? I think not. This place rocks !!!

I like the low heat adhesive to stick my tiny guides on... My fingers are too fat sometimes... I use it on Ice Rods because the blanks are so thin.. It works well. I also have used rubber tubing and it works too. The locking wraps are a given too.

Randy,
A very good source for the rubber to hold small guides on small blanks is the use of "ortho ties" These are the tiny - about .1 inch rings that are used at the ends of the braces to hold them in place.

Easy to find them by just doing an on line search for "ortho ties". When working with the tiny flexible ice rod tips, I find nothing better. Also, it is easy to rotate and or slide the guide up and down the blank before wrapping with the ties.

Be safe