Hey all,

Just wanted to see what kind of connections you guys are "needing to pass" out there...

I am currently using 90% fluoro on all my rods. Thus, I do not need to pass any connections and so I plan on building most of my rods using "Pac Bay Minima 4" fly guides as "micro guides." However, when I go to the beach for the occasional in-shore trip, I will definitely be switching over to a braid (casts a lot better in the open bays) and leader setup. If I were to use around a 20lb-25lb fluoro leader with 20lb braid, do you think I would be able to pass the needed connection? I think that if I were to go with a 2-2.5' leader, I probably wouldn't have to pass any connections and could leave the leader as slack, casting line at the end of the rod. When using regular guides however, I do add more leader, 5-6 feet, so I don't have to re-tie a leader that day. When I reel in to cast, I usually pass my knot connection to about the second or third running guide.

Please advise as to what you think I should do. I would say my fishing breakdown is 90% bass, 9% trout, and 1% inshore. I really only fish about 3-5 days in the salt all year. I would prefer to use my bass rods inshore and would prefer to build and design my rods to fill all my typical bass niches (shaky-head, drop shot, spinnerbait, jig rod, etc.) At the same time, I also realize that going from a 3 to a 4 or 5mm guide would be negligible and I might very well consider doing it if the benefits outweigh the consequences.

So, what sort of connections are you guys "passing out there?" Do you think I would be able to pass 20lb braid-25lb braid through a 3mm fly guide?

Thanks a lot!



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 06/17/2014 10:39AM by Carlos Saravia.

Carlos,

I use 4 mm micro running guides are just about all of my builds and I have found I have trouble with passing a knot though them. I use a double uni knot with braid to fluorocarbon line and the knot will catch or hang up on the 4 mm guides. I am using 40 lb braid and 8 lb fluoro and it will hang up. The knot will pass through the guides; but on casting I feel the knot catching on the guides as it passes through them. There are trade offs... go to 5 or 6 mm guides or put up with the line twitching as it passes through the guides. That bugs me. I haven't tried a blood knot maybe it would be smaller in size.

Don Campbell
don@sensorfishingrods.com



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/17/2014 10:47AM by Donald R Campbell.

I thought I would describe the line transitions and splices I have to deal with when I build rods for my fishery. There are a few variations, but by far the most challenging to deal with are multi-strand copper line trolling rigs.

Copper line rigs are all the rage on the Great Lakes. Very large capacity levelwind reels such as Shimano Tekota 800, Penn 345, Okuma Solterra 50L, are needed to have adequate backing behind the copper. Transitions to copper are accomplished by running the end of the copper through a Spro heavy duty swivel and then haywire twisting the tag end of the copper around itself. Many guys will slip a section of shrink tubing over the twist to keep the ends of the copper filaments from catching on the guides.

These reels generally get filled in reverse, then transferred to a temporary spool and rewound in the correct sequence: 20-30' of fluorocarbon leader material, swivel copper, swivel, 5-50' of a tough 40-50lb mono like Big Game, albright knot to power pro backing, albright knot to 20 feet or so of 20-30lb mono. At this point the reel should be full - the amount of Power Pro backing varies to fill the reel. This gets transferred to a different reel or to a couple intermediate spools if your working with just one reel.

Correctly spooled you end up with 20-30' mono attached to reel spool (to prevent slipping - Braid is never attached directly to the spool), then the backing, then the short section of 5-50' of heavy mono (this is where attachments are made to side planers - devices that take the trolled line far off to the side of the boat), then the copper - common lengths are 200-400 feet of 45lb copper, then the fluoro leader.

Many of these splices are so large that the levelwinds need modification to allow the splices to pass through them. Some guys, like myself, who take this to the extreme might load up with up to 750 feet of the 45lb copper or 550 feet+ of 60 lb copper - these righs require reels like a Penn Senator 9/0. The smallest guide ring on a rod like this is usually a 10-12.

The type of knot you tie + your proficiency in tying that knot + the length of leader will have a combined effect and help dictate the size guide you are best suited to. After that add in personal preference and you have your answer.

I routinely use 30# braid and 15# fluoro and have little trouble casting with #4s. 3s are a little too small for me period. Just don't like them.

I usually have about an 8' leader. I've never had a leader knot hang up on the first guide - which is on the reel. I seriously doubt you will have a problem with minima 4s. The internal diameter is a size higher (or maybe two?) anyway.

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With the potential knots that you might use, for braid and flouro, I will generally use a size 6 tip and runners.
Never any issues with this size.

However, I have had issues with both 3's and 4's with this knot combination.

But, if you use short leaders, and never pass a knot, it is a non issue. Do you really have to use a leader that is longer than 4 feet?

Be safe

Carlos,
i use 20# braid and 20# floro leader mostly.
I use 5 mm Minima 4's or 5.5 mm on size 20 microwaves as running guides and they work fine.
4's hang up enough on my knots in cold or when June grass is thick in the water that i now use 5mm.

I use a lot of fleuro leaders up to 20 lb test with braid, usually about same or up to about 30 on casting rigs. I don't believe the advantages of micros are worth the possible issue of knots passing cleanly, so favor 6's or 5.5's.

The knot used will affect this issue. The uni-uni is my most reliable knot, but it is not the smallest. I think an allbright or its variations is significantly smaller, but I find it harder to tie reliably. Note that the uni has 4 thicknesses of the larger line while the allbright has only 2.

I've also noticed that while knots pass, they don't always pass cleanly and quietly. I've also noticed that the length of the leader makes a significant difference. I don't know the magic formula, but you might try different lengths of fleuro and see if there is an optimum length.

Finally, knots tend to get beaten up as they pass through guides, so I expect the smaller the guide, the more damage is done to the knot. When I'm doing intensive fishing I inspect the knot a lot and tie a new one if I find any line damage.

Thanks a lot for the help guys.

To be honest, I have only ever used a micro guide casting rod before. I put micros on my first rod I ever built and it's easily the best rod I've ever used (and I've owned my fair share of expensive, factory made rods.) I like the idea of micros but will have to test them out and see what they actually bring to the table for me.

In my neck of the woods, we never really get grass and we never really have any problems with crud coming in to the tip top. I guess I'll just have to see. If worse comes to worst I'll take them off and stick some 5s or 6s on there.

Carlos, I'm not against micros, have them on a number of rods, and like the rods. But if I'm going to be using knots, I'll go bigger. Regarding micros getting clogged, I've not had that problem, and we get a lot of weedy crud and cottonwood here. Cottonwoods are "snowing" now, and I can see it on my first couple micros at the end of the rod, but I ignore it and I can't perceive that it's causing any trouble. Ice may be a different story, but I don't think I have fished below 32 F in a long time. :-)

If 1% of your fishing is salt, I suggest building a rod for the other 99% and just letting a short leader hang out the end on the day you go saltwater fishing. Tie any knot you want.

For all my personal rods for freshwater , i use fuji size 5 single foots as running guides and 15-20lb braid with 8,10,or12lb flouro or mono leaders. Using a crazy alberto connection, I have no problems passing the knot, feels smooth too. I do however, always use a tip with size 6 ring regardless of running guide size. I've found , for me anyway, when using any smaller of a tip that i feel the knot catch at times and find it annoying on the retrieve to have the connection catch at the tip. Larger tip solved this issue 100%.

For all my personal rods for freshwater , i use fuji size 5 single foots as running guides and 15-20lb braid with 8,10,or12lb flouro or mono leaders. Using a crazy alberto connection, I have no problems passing the knot, feels smooth too. I do however, always use a tip with size 6 ring regardless of running guide size. I've found , for me anyway, when using any smaller of a tip that i feel the knot catch at times and find it annoying on the retrieve to have the connection catch at the tip. Larger tip solved this issue 100%.

Matt, would it be accurate to characterize the crazy alberto knot as a double albright? Looks like it, so I would expect it to be very reliable. It uses only two thicknesses of the thick line and is more streamlined going out than on the retrieve, which I like. One thing that can help streamline a knot is super glue, if you want to bother with it. From what I see on the sketches it should allow smaller guides than the double uni.