Hello,

I'm building a 5' ultralight for panfishing and I was thinking I'd do KR concept. I typically use the "table edge" procedure for this to place my guides. The problem is, following this method with my reel actually gets my butt guide about 10" from the tip of the rod! Am I doing something wrong? I'm using a size 16 fuji KR guide for my stripper.

I looked at the recommendations here: [anglersresource.net] The KR concept rods I've done in the past all ended up somewhere similar to what's shown here. This seems to support my desire to use a size 16, too.

I'm tempted to just put my butt guide about 20" from the reel base and go from there. Obviously lining up the table edge isn't getting me the right results.

Any thoughts?

PS Oh and my reel is an abu garcia SX5, which is recommended 4lb test.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/14/2014 09:41PM by Scott Degen.

Where the tip of the rod is doesn't matter. The important distance is from the reel to the choke guide. For the same reel, the distance from the reel to the choke guide will be the same even if you have two rods of very different lengths. Don't think about the distance from the choke guide to the rod tip, think about the distance from the reel to the choke guide. Line control takes place between the reel and choke guide, not between the choke guide and tip top.

If you have a copy of RodMaker Volume 16 #2, check pages 10 & 11 for illustrations on why the same reel, used on different rod lengths. all have the same choke guide placement distance from the reel. The amount of rod left beyond the choke guide is immaterial.

One last thing, and I don't want to assume anything but you do know the intersect point with the rod blank is where the choke guide goes, not the butt guide?

.................

Scott,
Put the size 16 butt guide at 19 inches and more guides down the rod as needed to insure that the line is following the bend of the blank. Make sure that the size 16 is a tall guide to align with the reel and to avoid - herky jerky reel operation.

You will be in good shape.
Be safe

Thanks to both of you.

Tom,

Thanks for asking-- that's actually part of the problem-- If I draw a straight line extending the spool axis, that line never intersects with the rod, because the intersection point is about 6 inches beyond the tip! If I follow the guideline of having the top tip of the stripper hit that line, that's where i get my "10 inches from the tip" figure.

I don't know, maybe I just have a bad reel for a short rod. But I'd think a non-specialized ultralight reel ("5" size) would do OK...

[www.abugarcia.com] SX5.

Scott, your choker guide, the first #4 running guide, should be about 39" from the reel foot according to that chart.

Greg
Aptos, CA

With a "whacky" reel angle like that it seems likely that you might need to ignore the rules and experiment your way to success. With 4lb (or even 6) you should have plenty of latitude. Not knowing how the reel and rod will interact and with little "formula" to apply I would simply "guess" an average set up, tape and test, and work from there.

Try the stripper (KL16H) at 17 or 18 inches, try the choke (KB4.5) 14-15 inches beyond the stripper (based on the .45 multiplier in the modified KR CONCEPT). Fill in with a KL8H and KL5.5M (based on KR Groups) to complete the reduction train, add runners and test.

This experimental set-up should tell you what you need to know. If line slaps move the entire reduction an inch or two train closer, if it bunches behind the stripper move the entire reduction train out. You should hit a quiet, smooth spot pretty quickly.

I have done this with a few Penn reels that seem to have a choke point somewhere out in Utah and been pretty successful. It's hard for a "Fuji rules" guy like me to make suggestions like this but occasionally it's good to note that ALL available information adds up to nothing more than GUIDELINES - There are no "RULES".

Sometimes it's best to rely on the intuition that comes from all those past builds and listen to that little voice inside your head.

Scott,
The key thing on building a "short" rod, is to insure that the stripper guide is tall enough. If your stripper guide is tall enough and about 18-20 inches from the reel, the reel is going to work fine and you can use what ever reel you want on the rod.

If you use a Match size 16 butt guide, and then taper down from there, the rod is going to be great. For this short rod, just place the guides after the butt guide to insure that the blank will be properly loaded and the rod will work great with the reel of your choice.

The big mistake that too many folks make when they build a shorter rod is to use a shorter butt guide than they should. A butt guide that is too short causes all sorts of issues with any spinning rod.

Good luck

In addition to experimenting with things already mentioned, you might want to experiment with a non-collinear mounted real seat. Try building up some seat arbors out of tape so that the front of the reel seat is lifted up maybe 1/16" and the rear lowered a similar amount. This will tilt the reel angle upwards and help bring the reel spool axis more in line with the choke point. Doing this will smoothen the retrieval of the line and give a more pleasing experience in the rod; the further reels axis is from pointing to the choke point the more the line accelerates and decelerates as the bail spins elliptically around that ideal axis. I can only speculate about casting improvement, but there likely will be some.

I'm not sure what a Abu Garcia SX5 looks like, but I would image that it is pretty small. I built a ultra light last year, but mine was 7' and I use a very small Shimano 500 series. This is also rated for very light line. My set-up works very well and can cast quite far. Here is my set-up. You obvious won't need all the guides that I used and you won't need all of the KB's.

Guide Guide Placement
Inches Between Guides Inches from reel shaft end
BKLAG 12H 0.000 19.200
BKLAG 05.5H 6.050 25.250
BKBAG 04.5 5.750 31.000
BKBAG 04.5 4.000 35.000
BKBAG 04.5 4.000 39.000
BKTAG 04.5 4.000 43.000
BKTAG 04.5 4.000 47.000
BKTAG 04.5 4.000 51.000
BKTAG 04.5 4.000 55.000
BKTAG 04.5 4.000 59.000
BKTAG 04.5 3.875 62.875
BKTAG 04.5 3.875 66.750

Sorry about the format, it didn't stay when I spaced out the columns.

Chester

May your line be tight and your beverages be cold!

Already bought the blank? If not consider a much longer rod for much better casting and hook set capability. Rainshadow Revelation S72UL-SB at a very attractive price is getting very positive reviews from people who have been building a lot of panfish rods for many years. It has to be my next build. This will not affect guide placement, but will affect the fishability.