Sorry if its been answered but my searches have yet to show any threads that describe why people say not to use it

Why does it have a bad wrap (pun intended) LOL

What does it do that makes people not want to use it other than help maintain thread color?

Is it simply aesthetics or does it some how mechanically affect the bond of the epoxy?

Hi Paul,
Some builders don't like to use cp on guide wraps as they think it can cause a weaker bond to the thread and blank. I've used cp on all my guide wraps ever since I started building over 35 years ago and have yet to have a guide come loose. I have stripped a number of my builds and I found good adhesion of the finish to the blank through the threads so I don't have a problem using it but others have their own opinion and won't use it. To each his own and you will hear their reasons as it's not up to me why or why not builders use it. Ncp thread doesn't usually have nice bright colours or if you want to use embroidery thread for the colour range then you will need cp as regular nylon and emroidery thread will turn transparent or very dark without cp.

ESFNEM Col
Port Kembla, NSW
Australia

People often mis-use CP and then the CP gets the blame for whatever ills take place. And, there are some things CP is not capable of doing such as perfectly preserving the color of very light threads on very dark rod blanks.

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Many of us do not use CP because we don't want the thread to look like thread, by allowing the epoxy to penetrate and make the thread more transparent the wraps lose the "thread" appearance. This very common on fly rods where "bling" is disdained! On rods where the wraps are much more decorative, CP's use is important to retain the colors for the decorations.

Hello Paul.

Add Tom, Col and Phil's answers and they just about cover it.

Tight Wraps.

Bob,

New Bern, NC.

When I show beginners how to plan decorative butt and guide wraps, I always make sure they understand that color preserver is a tool to do just what the name implies - it preserves color. (It also has a second use as a fixative for other decorative embellishments such as leathers, decals, feathers, etc.)

Just as important as understanding the above, it is also important to understanding that preservation of color may or may not be desirable to achieve the goal you have planned.

Excluding silks and polyester threads, most rod building threads are made from nylon. Of the nylon threads there are "regular nylon" or "standard nylon" threads, and colorfast threads (also called NCP - no color preserver).

Regular thread is not color fast when top coat finishes are applied directly to them without color preserver. This means that when finish is applied, it turns semi-translucent and some of the coloring beneath the thread shows through it. For example, if you apply finish without CP to white regular thread over a black blank, the thread will no longer look white; it will look gray because the black will show through. This can be either desirable or undesirable depending on the effect you are trying to achieve.

As an example, think of a plaid flannel shirt. If you study how the threads are woven together, you can get a similar visual effect on a rod with regular threads and no CP. If you apply this concept to a decorative butt wrap on a fishing rod, a simple diamond of white over a black blank will yield THREE colors (the black and gray mentioned above, but you will also get white where the white threads cross each other). The third color, white, comes from layering of white threads over each other. Now, assuming color preserver was 100% effective (it is not by the way), if you applied color preserver to this same wrap you would only have only two colors, the black bland and the white thread (there would be no gray).

Taking this to the next step, there are time when you may wish to mix regular and NCP threads to achieve a specific effect. This is a common practice when creating tartan and plaid butt wraps. If you study some samples of cloth, you will notice that often some patterns have thin bands of color that do not bleed or blend with the colors they are woven with. Usually these bands are white, black, or primary colors used as trim bands. To achieve this effect from the cloth on a rod, you will use NCP thread.

My favorite Scotch plaid is constructed mostly from yellow and red and white threads that weave amongst each other. The three colors of regular thread blend with each other creating many shades that form the bands of colors of the pattern. These bands are highlighted with single threads of bright red and black that does not blend with the colors beneath them. To achieve this effect, I use red and black NCP threads which hold their colors without CP.

Some people say you should always use CP. They may say this is because it doesn’t hurt to do so. Others say you can build your whole life and never use CP. I say, if that works for you and the rods you build, great. However, I prefer to understand how to creatively use (or not use) CP to get the effect I want.

I encourage you to do some experimenting; paint some dowels various colors and wrap some bands of different color threads (both regular and NCP) over each color paint. On some apply CP; on others leave them CP free. Apply a finish and see for yourself what kind of results you get. If you plan this out right you should cover all four scenarios: regular thread with and without CP, and NCP with and without CP. In doing this simple exercise you'll learn a heck of a lot about when to use and when not to use CP.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 11/05/2013 01:14PM by John E Powell.

Personal preference.

I love CP. but use it very rarely for color preserving.

From a little different angle.....because if you read enough you will discover someone with a horror story. It is along the line of: I spent umpteen hours doing a decorative wrap and when I put the CP on, all the threads lost tension and now I have to cut it all off......or it left blotches all over the wrap and now I have to start all over.

So when I got back into wrapping after a few decades away from it....and the old favorite CP wasn't around anymore....and there were all these horror stories....and it took me so long to do closed butt wrap that the idea of cutting it off and starting over was painfull......well I was nervous and didn't want to chance using CP.

The idea of redoing guide wraps wasn't so painfull so I got around to using CP and had no problems.

Russ in Hollywood, FL.

You also have to realize that most of the things that happen are ( user error )
Not enough tension or not applied correctly ??
Builders have to play with different CP's and find one they like Test !!
I have tried a few and went back to good old Flex Coat
I have also used That glue thinned butt used several coats Think it was cause of it was a type of GLUE
But it did work and ya got to be careful of how much ya thin it
CP can also save a wrap I have found that with loose threads when I put on several drops of CP and as it set up I can pack the thread with a little heat ( be carefull ) of the heat It can set really fast But adjust and pack threads as to SAVE a wrap

Ya got to ply with them

Bill - willierods.com

Awesome........ thanks to all for taking the time to reply, its been very helpful.
I wondered it was an aesthetics issue or if there was a structural issue surrounding its use.
My fear was it would some how weaken the bond of the epoxy from some of the things I have read but if thats not an issue it time to wrap some up and see what I like.

As for demonstrating the effect of using or not using CP, I have taken a 3 foot piece of Matte blank and wrapped 1 inch of every color I stock. I then apply CP to 1/2 inch of each wrap and leave 1/2 inch without CP. I then applied epoxy to all the warps. This very clearly shows my clients the effects with and without on every color of thread. As I only build fly rods, 95+% of them chose "no CP." Again as I have stated above, most fly fishermen disdain the bright colors and prefer the more organic look. Some simple trims on the wraps are sometimes the exception.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/10/2013 04:25PM by Phil Erickson.

I hate the stuff. In the beginning, (for me the early 70's) the only kind out there was a lacquer type...is the term aromatic solvents? That crap left blotches, bald spots, and all sorts of grief. That's because it dried unevenly. Especially the big blob under the guide's foot.

Enter modern times, with WATER as the carrier !!! Now we are getting somewhere.... as water takes forever to dry, thereby making no blotches, pinto ponies, yada. But taking forever to dry, meant the project took another day to do. So I just use dark threads on dark rods, and go for the wet look, resinating direct, with Bob Smith Industries 5 min resin for quickies, and Threadmaster for nicer work..

I am an amateur builder that has built several rods for myself. Some others for friends and of course for my wife, kids and grandkids. I thought I was getting good at it. After about 10 rods mostly fly rods and some spinning rods, I thought I would use CP to try to maintain the color of the wrap and as I read this board regularly and some others I did use CP . Bought a nice little 7ft 3 wt St. Croix SCIV blank and went to work. I read up on the subject and followed directions. When I applied the Flex Coat, it fish eyed badly, and covered unevenly. Part of the wrap was covered as usual and part clearly showed the thread. I know it wasn't silicone from the syringes, but I figured it was from some other contamination. I cleaned the rod, let it dry and rubbed it with a lint free cloth applied another coat of FC and had the same problem. That rod is still sitting in my fly tying room and has been for 3 years while I decide what to do with it. Taking off all the epoxy and rewrapping seems like a task I really don't want to do. I have tried to remove epoxy to replace a bad guide and wasn't happy with the results. I really can't get it all off!! Now my son asked me to build a pack rod for him. I have a 4 piece Ranshadow sitting in the basement and the thought of building it is causing me some uneasiness. How am I going to handle it when I really don't know what happened to my last build. I thought I would try to finish the rod I screwed up first. Where do I start?
I do know I will not use COLOR PRESERVER and will never again.

On the SCIV, should I take the wraps off and begin again or try another coat of FC?

Clean it up and start over. Putting another coat over something that already looks bad isn't going to help.