I'm specing out components f or a medium freshwater spinning setup. I'm a rookie to rod building but have built a few casting rods. I'm trying to figure out a guide layout on what concept I want to use. can someone please stear me in the right direction on pros and cons on each system? I'm still trying to figure out what the 27x system is and how to apply it.
thanks in advance
Chris Forslund

Chris,

The 27x system is the NGC modified by comparing the choker location used on a variety of rods from UL to very powerful rods and tweaked for optimal casting. As it turned out, Tom showed that on average the choker ended up 27x the spool diameter from the face of the spool. The NGC and 27x method will allow you to build rods that cast very well for all line types and diameters, but when you tweak the system for optimal casting, then the rod may not cast as well if you move to a more stiff line or a line with a larger diameter.

As braids, fused, and other limber lines with small diameter have gained in popularity, guide trains may be choked down a bit sooner without affecting casting distance. The KR system is a great technique if you tend to use lines of this type, as you can get away with a significantly lighter guide train, and control the line quickly.

The Microwave system is great for people who like to change reel sizes, line types, and line diameters often. It is known as performing very well with a large range of reel sizes, line types and diameters.

With all that said, guide trains can be a bit more resilient than we want to give them credit for, and the casting distance differences between well conceived guide trains may only be a few percent. However, each guide train design has its pros and cons. It's a great idea to know and understand each one, so you can better adapt each build to the owner, whether it be you, a friend, a family member, or perhaps in the future a client.

Perhaps the most useful thing I did for building spinning rods was to invest in a set of reduction guides in a few different frame styles that would cover my needs. If you buy sets of lower end guides, you will end up making a modest investment. You can use them to setup guide trains and for test casting. Then, if you want higher end rings or finishes on the finished rod, you can just order what you need. I try to keep keep tall frame Match guides, Y frame guides, a MW set, and the traditional v frame guides on hand at all times. I still need to add a set of Fuji Ks or Kigan Zs to my permanent stash. My biggest problem is that I tend to find the stainless frames with aluminum oxide rings adequate for my fishing, and I tend to use up my stash on my personal rods.

Joe



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/02/2013 11:08AM by Joe Vanfossen.

second on the microwave guides. they just work

[www.rodbuilding.org]

...........

A disadvantage of any of the tall reduction guides is that they may not fit into the storage tubes of boats very well, or at all. If this is a priority you may want to check the dimensions of the finished rod design vs your tubes. The distance gains may not justify the inconvenience. You can do KR without doing micros, so it may offer a little more versatiliy than the Microwave which comes with no option on running guide sizes or styles. I've not tried KR or Microwave with any mono over 8 pound test, but they work OK with 8 and I've not read about any poorer performance with 10 than the traditional systems. I think there is more to learn here.

Both KR and Microwave reduction systems are lighter than 27X or cone of flight, and when used with micro running guides make a very light, sensitive rod. You can do micros with 27X, but it will be a litlte heavier.

I have found that I can use a two guide reduction train with Y guides and get very good performance with either micros or mono with some reels (edge of table technique) and with braid of at least 17 pound test. I think there still is a lot to learn. There are so many options it will take a long time to get personal experience with all of them.

Any system utilizing micros may not pass your knots as well as larger running guides.
Some will argue that there are knots that pass well through micros, but I've tried a number of them without being satisfied using knots and micros.

Kigan ZH (High Frame) spinning guides are my all-around favorite. I have put them on approximately 8 or 9 rods now and have had very good comments from the customers. They have all of the benefits of zero tangle, same height as Fuji's KR guides but with a slightly different frame design, quick reduction, and cast very well. I am in the process of changing my personal spinning rods to those guides.
Nothing against the AmTak MW guides except cost efficiency. If guide price is a factor, go with Kigan ZH guides. On most bass rods I use a 3 guide reduction system: 20, 10, 5.5, then 4's or 5's to the tip top.

David Dosser
Coshocton, OH

Hi Chris;
One nice thing about Microwave guides is that guide location is easy and foolproof.
It seems to works with any freshwater reel size or line weight.
No doubt a master builder can fine tune 27X or Concept guides to perform just as well, but for a new builder, MW make life very easy.
Garry2rs

Yep Garry makes much easier. I like them.

Bobby Stout
Bloomburg, TX