I had my first 9' spinning rod build, and i was wondering if anyone can help me out to understand what is the general cause of having an unwanted tip vibration while reeling in?

what type of line are you using?
and what guides and tip are on the rod?
Could be being caused by either one

I'm using 3 transitional ALPS guides size 40 25 12 and for running guides i went with FUJI's 5.5 BLDs of 20lb braid. The rod is sensitive, however i notice that it has that tip vibration when using shimano's TU8000CI4. When i used okuma Cedros CJF-55 that shake is not noticeable. Both reels are about the same size, however seems to me that shimano TU8000CI4 is not build in angle where i couldn’t determine the chocking point.

Something is dragging. Some sort of friction there that shouldn't be, so the rod tip vibrates as the line stutters across what may be a bad guide ring surface. The reel could also play a role.

................

Could it be that the thunnus rotor isn't as balanced, and creates a wobble noticed in the tip, when you reel your line back in?

Russ in Hollywood, FL.

Russell Brunt Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Could it be that the thunnus rotor isn't as
> balanced, and creates a wobble noticed in the tip,
> when you reel your line back in?


Unfortunately i don't have another TU8000CI4 reel to compare apple to apple, but like i wrote earlier, the only major difference that I’ve seen between these two reels are the angle in the frame. Okuma has that angle vs Shimano has no angle at all from which it won’t allow me to establish the choke point. Both reels are fairly new, as a matter fact my shimano is only 2 months old. Also, the braid is 20lb at 8 strands not the standard 4 strands, so I consider it pretty smooth. I just don’t get what could be the problem.

If it does this with one reel but not the other, then you have probably isolated the problem. It could very well be what Russell mentioned - an out of balance rotor.

............

FWIW....I owned the first generation shimano baitrunners. They were all graphite. I loved them and told a friend to consider them when he was looking for a "big" spinning reel for live bait fishing. We decided on the 6500 size but it now had an aluminum spool. Bottom line, we both hated the reel as it made the rod wobble like crazy. I noticed todays btr6500 claims to be "dyna-balanced", what ever that means:)

Russ in Hollywood, FL.

A fancy theme for common spinning reel rotor balance. Usually a spinning reel rotor will contain a lead weight inside the head opposite the side that the bail arm roller is attached to. This is intended to balance the rotor, although some companies do a better job at this than others.

.............

Bough,
Your guide layout sounds like it is an excellent selection and layout.

If you think that it is either line and or reel caused, then switch.

i.e. use a few different lines on the same reel to see if there are any changes.

If you think that it might be the reel, then try a dozen different reels with a half dozen different lines on each reel to isolate the issue.

I am actually having a problem in understanding your question.

You state, "unwanted tip vibration".

What does that mean?

Also, if the tip is vibrating when the line is coming in, why does that matter?

Do some experimenting with different lines and different reels and let us know what you find.

Good luck

Improper balance can certainly cause the vibration your describing, but so can the upsweep angle of the reel's spool. Geometrically speaking, when a spinning reel's face is not 3-dimensionally perpendicular to the line travel path, it is impossible to achieve a consistent line retrieval speed from a consistent handle rotation speed. For a situation like you describe where you can't determine a line of sight choke point because the reel has very little to no upsweep, every time the bail roller passes top dead center (tdc) heading toward bottom dead center (bdc) the line retrieval speed increases. As the roller passes bdc heading toward tdc, the retrieval slows. If you were to graph the actual speed the line is traveling through the guides throughout a complete rotation of the bail roller, the speed of the line, when graphed, would look like a sine wave. Under no load, this continually varying line speed change would have little effect on a rod tip and shouldn't cause much vibration. However, applying some basic physics principles, if a load is applied (like a lure, or casting plug) during retrieval, the load wants to stay at a consistent speed during retrieval while the line speed is oscillating faster and slower following the sine curve representative of actual line speed. The "give" in the system between the changing line speed and the load which wants to maintain it's speed, is the compliant rod tip absorbing the energy of the line speed increases by bending and then releasing the energy by straightening as the line speed decreases. Speeding up the whole process to a normal lure retrieve rate, these effects can manifest as a vibration you described.

On a large spool reel where the retrieve rate per handle turn is relatively high and where there is not a lot of upsweep to the spool angle, you have, mathematically speaking, a more inconsistent retrieve speed than a smaller reel with a moderate spool angle upsweep. The sine wave graph of line speed would have higher peak and troughs compared to other reels. The greater the change between the peaks and troughs the more the rod tip would vibrate to compensate for the retrieval rate change.

To help diagnose what is causing the problem, reel the line in through the guides and affix the end to the reel spool. Now simulate a cast and retrieve and see if the reel alone without line or load on the line causes the vibration you described. If it does, the reel has a balance problem.

If it did not vibrate, try running out 50' or so of line through the guides and then reel in the UNLOADED line through the guides. You may or may not feel some rod tip movement here. When considering what you discover, keep in mind that the unloaded line may be whipping about in your guides, so you need to determine if this is the cause or not. To tell if this is the cause, now try reeling in a LOADED line. If you notice either a new vibration or an increase in vibration at this step, the problem is likely the lack of upsweep to the reel spool. if tis is the case, you don;t have a lot of options other than changing the reel or changing the spool angle by bending the reel stem or shimming the reel seat arbor off center to increase the spool angle. (I've done this a few times to move a choke point to get better guide train layout, but the principle would work the same here).

If you try my experiment, I'd like to know your findings.

John E Powell Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Improper balance can certainly cause the vibration
> your describing, but so can the upsweep angle of
> the reel's spool. Geometrically speaking, when a
> spinning reel's face is not 3-dimensionally
> perpendicular to the line travel path, it is
> impossible to achieve a consistent line retrieval
> speed from a consistent handle rotation speed. For
> a situation like you describe where you can't
> determine a line of sight choke point because the
> reel has very little to no upsweep, every time the
> bail roller passes top dead center (tdc) heading
> toward bottom dead center (bdc) the line retrieval
> speed increases. As the roller passes bdc heading
> toward tdc, the retrieval slows. If you were to
> graph the actual speed the line is traveling
> through the guides throughout a complete rotation
> of the bail roller, the speed of the line, when
> graphed, would look like a sine wave. Under no
> load, this continually varying line speed change
> would have little effect on a rod tip and
> shouldn't cause much vibration. However, applying
> some basic physics principles, if a load is
> applied (like a lure, or casting plug) during
> retrieval, the load wants to stay at a consistent
> speed during retrieval while the line speed is
> oscillating faster and slower following the sine
> curve representative of actual line speed. The
> "give" in the system between the changing line
> speed and the load which wants to maintain it's
> speed, is the compliant rod tip absorbing the
> energy of the line speed increases by bending and
> then releasing the energy by straightening as the
> line speed decreases. Speeding up the whole
> process to a normal lure retrieve rate, these
> effects can manifest as a vibration you
> described.
>
> On a large spool reel where the retrieve rate per
> handle turn is relatively high and where there is
> not a lot of upsweep to the spool angle, you have,
> mathematically speaking, a more inconsistent
> retrieve speed than a smaller reel with a moderate
> spool angle upsweep. The sine wave graph of line
> speed would have higher peak and troughs compared
> to other reels. The greater the change between the
> peaks and troughs the more the rod tip would
> vibrate to compensate for the retrieval rate
> change.
>
> To help diagnose what is causing the problem, reel
> the line in through the guides and affix the end
> to the reel spool. Now simulate a cast and
> retrieve and see if the reel alone without line or
> load on the line causes the vibration you
> described. If it does, the reel has a balance
> problem.
>
> If it did not vibrate, try running out 50' or so
> of line through the guides and then reel in the
> UNLOADED line through the guides. You may or may
> not feel some rod tip movement here. When
> considering what you discover, keep in mind that
> the unloaded line may be whipping about in your
> guides, so you need to determine if this is the
> cause or not. To tell if this is the cause, now
> try reeling in a LOADED line. If you notice either
> a new vibration or an increase in vibration at
> this step, the problem is likely the lack of
> upsweep to the reel spool. if tis is the case, you
> don;t have a lot of options other than changing
> the reel or changing the spool angle by bending
> the reel stem or shimming the reel seat arbor off
> center to increase the spool angle. (I've done
> this a few times to move a choke point to get
> better guide train layout, but the principle would
> work the same here).
>
> If you try my experiment, I'd like to know your
> findings.

First, i would like to thank you for the most detailed troubleshooting steeps in your post, second you were absolutely right. Here is what i did:
I toke the reel off, with no line, turned the handle, and came out to be, as usually claimed by Shimano - super smooth. At that point if were any rotor balance issues i would of noticed right away - but it wasn’t. So, even though i pinpoint the major differences between Okuma and Shimano, it did NOT cross my mind to replicate the frame angle on shimano like the okuma reel, but your post flooded my brain with that information. Therefore, what i did, i padded a piece of rubber in the bottom part of the shimano reel and reel seat, to the point where the choke point almost matched the KR's concept layout and i did a first casting test; what a difference - smooth like butter. No vibration in the tip aka wobbling, while reeling in a 1oz weight at no load - nothing. That just blows my mind. All this time I start believing that the rod design was the problem, turns out – it was not. It would be nice if someone would make some money on selling pads for issues like this. I would open my wallet (no advertisement intended).
All that i can say at this point: Thank you John E Powell - you nailed it.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/09/2013 08:25PM by Boghy Brock.

I had a hunch that was the problem. I don't build many spinning rods (I build mostly trolling rods), but I always mock up (on a table edge) where the reel spool shaft projects out and crosses the blank. This is my choke projection line, from which I step back to find the choke point on the inside outer ring of choke guide. If this varies significantly from one of the 27x, NGC, KR concept, (and presumably microwave layouts, though I have not tried this with microwave guides yet), I know I need to create an angled reel seat surface by either a tapered or shaved collinearly-mounted seat or offset bushings in a standard cylindrical seat. When my line of sight choke point matches the calculated choke point for the guides I'm using, I'm pretty much guaranteed to end up with a finished rod that "feels" right. It's like the rod and reel are one and the same, not two parts that fight each other.

An extreme example of this was an inside the hut ice fishing rod I built a couple years ago, the tip was about 19.5" in front of the reel and the projected choke point on the 500 class Shimano was out about 2x the length of the rod. I basically had to mill out an angled area under the front reel foot (cork Tennessee style handle) and build up under the rear foot to angle the reel up enough to move the line of sight choke point to the rod tip. When it was all completed, I could actually cast and retrieve this rod (somewhat) like a longer rod. This totally eliminated the rod vibration so common with ice rods/spinning reel combos I've felt in the past.

Maybe that is partially why fly style reels are becoming more popular on ice rods. With the reel axis perpendicular to the line path, you eliminate the effect I described and you now discovered. Thinking about it more, maybe that is one aspect as to why so many purist are attracted to fly fishing. The rod/reel mechanical interaction, by physical design, is technically superior than a spinning reel (IMO).

By the way, sorry if these past few posts have been difficult to read as I've been reduced to writing on my cell phone, trying to edit and wordsmith on it is next to impossible for me. I hope you get the gist of what I was trying to convey.

sorry, double post



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/10/2013 12:22PM by Jim Ising.

I can sum it up for you John. UPSWEEP ANGLE MATTERS. I especially like your description of a rod that "feels" right...like the rod and reel are one and the same, not two parts that fight each other. The "sweet spot".

Thanks for making me think about this issue from a totally new place.

Jim,

You may recall a while back we chatted through e-mail a bit about the software and some suggestions I made to allow users to enter centerline offsets that were different from front to back. Basically, this is what I was proposing. I've since played around with an excel file that somewhat simulates Fuji's software but includes the offsets to allow me to simulate what I described above (the ability to manipulate the visual choke point to match a "concept" choke point". My thinking was that I could determine, for example, that with .100" upward offset and .100" rearward offset of the reel seat centerline, I could speed up the mock up time and get to test casting much quicker.

What I found was that in practice, it was actually easier to slide the loose blank through the reel seat (with the reel spool axis aligned above a straight edge) and simply move the blank to match a 27x/kr/ngc/micro choke point. Then, making sure the reel seat axis and blank axis are parallel to each other, I simply need to take some precise top/bottom measurements at both the front and back of the seat and basically I arrived at the same info the excel spreadsheet was telling me.

The big time savings came from NOT having to measure the reel first in order to enter the info into the spreadsheet. realizing this, I sort of gave up on my idea and haven't tinkered with it much because the only way to make my idea work more efficiently than just mocking it up would be to have some way to measure the reel very accurately and quickly. I've considered building a fixture that could take the necessary measurements quickly, but I just haven't been motivated to do so since I realized how easy it was to just mock it up one rod at a time. And like I said, I don't build many spinning rods at all for my fishery, I do mostly trolling rods so maybe some day I'll tinker with this some more.

I've always had this intuitive feeling that reel upsweep should be a controllable variable in a custom build and just as important as choke point, guide placement, and static load testing. I think so many of us just take this for granted without an afterthought, we just mount the reel seat collinear to the blank axis and then try to make the rod work by manipulating guide size, height, orientation, and distribution. Sometimes this works well, and sometimes not so well. By adjusting reel seat angle (and in effect reel upsweep) we should be better able to make the reel and blank/guides work more in concert with each other resulting in a more enjoyable experience for the angler.

If you enter your reel info into the software and you get a choke point and guide train that just doesn't intuitively make sense, why not take the extra step and alter the seat angle to move the choke point of your desired guide train to a spot that makes more sense for the build? In the end, you'll probably end up with a better casting rod, more even stress distribution and a happier customer who'll more likely pass on his wonderful experience with the rod you made him to other potential customers.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 10/10/2013 01:19PM by John E Powell.

Anyone ready to tackle "adjustable stem" spinning reels? Anyone....?

No

Not every thing made anyware around the world is PERFICT Not now a days !!!!
When people get paid buy how many items they do - they push them and do more

Do you think they Check - Recheck - And then check again they are trying to make money Perfection is not there gole

The reel fell thought the cracks
Simple Don't use it Send it back Try another And don't buy from that company ???

Bill - willierods.com