I'm planning my first fly rod build. This forum has proved invaluable as a resource and I'm so greatful for the experience and knowledge shared here. It will be a 9' 8wt TFO BVK for LA and TX reds and specks. I'm trying to use the smallest REC recoil single foot titianium (or spinning) running guides that I can realistically get away with. I'll be using 8 wt RIO Redfish WFF with 25 and 20 # flourocarbon leaders with 50# power pro backing all connected loop to loop. The diameter of the largest loop under relaxed line tension was only .125". Is there a rule of thumb regarding the minimum guide diameter that can "safely" pass that knot under running load or tension? For example do you use a .5X, 1.0X. 1.5X, 2.0X 2.5 X knot expansion factor for guide selection? I'm hoping to get away with .187" but fine going to .220", .225" or even .280" if needed. If larger diameters are recommended I would like to hear the logic behind that advice.

Searches all come back with advice stating "run the smallest guide that can pass your knots". Not to ignore the obvious here, but I would love some advice from those with much more experience in the matter. I am fine buying and taping up a variety of diffent sizes to test cast if needed but I was hoping to not reinvent the wheel if possible. All of the commercially produced rods I've seen (regardless of price) have running guides that I could put my pinky through. They look like they could safely pass the knot from the anchor line of my kayak. Ideally I would like to apply the micro guide concept to my fly rod. I have run into issues with mirco guides on my spinning rods having trouble with passing double surgeons knots between my 20# flouro leader and 30# power pro. I would seriously like to avoid the same problem on my first fly rod. Any and all advice y'all can provide would be much appreciated.

Have you considered changing to "double uni knot" rather than double surgeon knot? IMO it lies "flatter"

I doubt anyone will offer a "math" solution but I could be wrong.

I'd be thinking along the lines of "will I "ever" use a shooting head" and "what is the weight "cost" of a larger guide". It is one thing to say a size 4 is twice the weight of a size 1. It is another to say a size 4 weighs 1/1000 (of an ounce) more than a size 1. Chances are a size 4 would work for anything you could ever use that rod for. A size one would be quite limiting and it is hard to predict what the future might bring.

If it was me, I'd be thinking size 3 at the smallest. Reds and specks aren't fast/long running fish but one day that rod might hook a tarpon/snook/bonefish. Who knows!

Russ in Hollywood, FL.

Fred,
For an 8 weight I normally end with a #2 light wire single foot Recoil guide.
A loop to loop is clear, but just. Since this only goes through when rigging it hasn't been an issue.
If you prefer a large loop tip top go up to a #3. I typically use a standard loop for the previous reason and prefer the weight reduction while casting.
You might also look at the 30# gel spun backing and get some more clearance.

Keep in mind, that they only connection to go through the guides with a fish on will almost always be the line/backing connection, and as this will be under tension, it will be smaller then the relaxed size. Not aware of any formula for this issue, go with what makes you comfortable.

It isn't likely that a significant difference in performance can be objectively measured between a fly rod with #3 guides and one with #4 guides, but style is important too. Just as black clothing lends people a slimming look so black guides give fly rods a slimmer look. Difficulty passing a line-to-leader connection up or down through a guide train will give a fisherman an unflattering appearance and some impolite language.

Fred,
First of all a #8 RIO Redfish is really a #8.5. So already you are close to a #9. Typically the BVK has to be overlined to get any kind of performance out of it. I find the tip quite soft and to load the rod down deep you will have to load it better - therefore more grains. Sometimes you may find it necessary to go with a #9 line.
So I would use a min. of a #3 REC Recoil s/f FLY GUIDE. Maybe even a #4. When my recoils get mixed-up I have a real hard time distinguishing between a #3 and a #4. especially because they are not exactly consistant in size.

So bottom line - minimum of #3 - maximum a #4.
Herb
Distrib. CTS Fly Blanks.

How long of a leader do you plan on fishing and are you tying your own or are you using tapered off the shelf leaders. Like others have stated, only knot that will be going through guides will be your backing to fly line knot. If you are using long leaders, then the fly line to leader connection will pass through when landing a fish. Most of those knots are loop to loop now as well, but if that is too big of a connection, nail knot is the alternative. You are not seeing much of a difference between the 3's and 4's in terms of size and performance so I would lean towards the Recoil 4's.

Also agree with Herb on line selction. Almost all of the TFO's I have thrown were overlined by 1 to get them to really load well. Rio Outbound would be the exception but that line is understated IMO.

Fred,
To be safe, use a size 6. Never a knot issue, no matter the line, and the weight difference between a 6 and a 3 is in the gram or sub gram range.

Don't frustrate the user of the rod, by placing guides on the rod, that could ever cause issues with any sort of line connection that is going to be used.

If not using knots, I will often go down to size 3. But any time that I suspect that knots are going to be run through the guides, I like to stay with at least a size 6. Remember, knots typically have tag ends, (shorter or longer tag ends) but the tag ends, what ever the length can make a big issue with any guide that is too small.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/17/2013 12:58PM by roger wilson.

Roger,
A size 6 REC Recoil is much too large for a #8.
I use size 5's on my 12'(+) beach rods in the 11-12 wt category.
I use #4's on a #9 and #10 single-hand rod. Since the BVK most likely end-up being overlined a #4 is more than enough.
Of course - this is only my opinion.
Herb

Keep in mind not only knots, but the what the knots pick up and carry along with them.
The last thing you need it something like debris to catch in a guide during an important cast, or hanging up while fighting a fish.
Sometimes we look at ultimate performance and forget real world fishing issues.

Best wishes,
Ron Schneider
Schneider's Rod Shop
Mountain Home, Arkansas
[www.schneidersrods.com]
mtnron40@yahoo.com
870-424-3381

Thanks for the great advice gentlemen. I've seen Sage and a few others run size 2 running guides on 8wt rods and hoped I could safely do the same. Good point Ron about leaving room for extra "things" reeled in with the knots. That's exactly why I'm asking.