I've had a lot of customs built over the last few years, and have started to build a few of my own just to play around with/give to friends.

But I am having one more high end build done by a builder, and am contemplating having a spiral wrap done. But am hesitant because I have held out this long without trying one...
This would be a medium action spin jig NFC blank built as a casting build for finesse jigs, senkos, tubes, and jerkbaits.

I thought if there was ever a time to try it; a finesse casting build might be a good bet. Micro's are already ruled out...not a fan. And I usually start with a double footed size 10 guide, so I will probably start with that. The guide train and sizing I usually use is for light casting rods would be 10, 8, 7's all the way to the tip with a size 6 tip. I usually go with the minimum number of guides possible to allow the rod to fish as it was intended to, without being weighed down with too many guides. For instance this rod will have a 3" butt extension and I will probably go with 8 guides + the tip.

Is the spiral a good option for me? Are there any drawbacks to it? I don't really have a reason for trying it just curiousity...I don't really see the reason for a spiral in a non saltwater rod, because freshwater bass aren't really going to put torsional torque on a blank or your wrists.

Also if I did go with a spiral I fish lefty reels. Does this mean the spiral should run to the left of the blank? And what's a good spacing system?

I've seen people put the first guide on top of the rod, then offset each one around 15 or 30 from each other, but I've also seen the first guide offset to the side 30 degrees. Does a big jump like 30 degrees on a casting rod affect casting performance or cause the line to come through the line guide on the reel with a lot of friction, or cause it to stack to one side of the reel?

I think I would be more comfortable with the first on top, then mimimum degrees of offset from guide to guide, but I have no experience with spirals.
Also how do the spirals work as they approach the tip? Do the last few end up on top of the blank, or the very last one, or does it even matter?

Sorry about the long post guys, just want to be sure I have a coherent plan going in to this build if I decide to go with a spiral build.

thanks,
Sam Moore

These are the sort of things you should be discussing with your rod builder. If you trust him enough to build you a "high end" rod, then you must surely trust his knowledge on the subject and his ability to build a rod that will meet your needs.

.................

IMHO a casting rod is the incorrect tool for finesse fishing. That's what spinning rods are made for.
I think the only time a spiral wrap isn't the best/only way to go is for hard jerkbait fishing from a boat. Most of the time your rod tip is pointed straight down at the water. Otherwise, the sw is awesome. You'll get many diff. ways of rotating the guides around the rod. A search on this site proves it. I'm pretty sure they'll all work good. I used the first 3 guides to make the rotation to the bottom of rod and the rest of the runners straight out. Some folks do it quicker.

Just looking for opinions Tom. There's more than one way to skin a cat, and particularly with spiral wrapping there seems to be a lot of methods out there. What works for my builder may not for me, it all gets subjective. I'm looking for advantages and disadvantages of each method, and which will work best for me (ie...left hand or offset degree of each guide). Then I can take what I like from each, and come up with a plan that will meet my needs.

I don't trust any singular person to make decisions for me, I much rather prefer to have an idea of what I want going in. I feel if I go in with no idea of what I want, and then my builder gets me a great rod built, but I don't like the way it fishes, that would be my fault for not doing my homework.

As it stands now, with my builds I leave nothing to chance with builds. Every detail of the build and componentry is laid out ahead of time, and all my builder needs to do is perform the function of putting the blueprint into a finished rod. But with this I can't do that, because I have no experience fishing spiral wrapped rods.

Sorry, but that's the only way I feel comfortable pursuing a build.

Also I'm looking for different ways to do spiral wrapping so I can have an idea of the different methods out there, for when I start building rods.

Then I'm not sure what your builder is going to be doing, other than assembling a rod to your supplied specs. That type of builder doesn't rate much in terms of a fee.

When you employ a good custom rod builder, most of the associated cost is associated with what he knows - his experience and knowledge. You might want to seek one of those out.

................

Do a search on it here and then build your own

There are also good articals in RodMaker Mag you should be able to get It tells of all the different types of spiral wraps Very Good
Email Tom K for the back issues

Bill - willierods.com



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 03/19/2013 04:14PM by bill boettcher.

In my opinion, I prefer casting rods in the traditional on top method. The line path cannot be any straighter than straight. I have never felt any torque in the hand using the freshwater casting rods I have used. The smaller and closer to the blank the tip guides used are the less value there is in the torque reducing spiral wrap setup. I think they look goofy when looking down the rod. A minor point? Maybe, but it's more than minor to me. I have built and used spirals and have noted no performance compromises other than the appearance issue. If the line path issue is significant, I haven't found it. I do like the spiral when trolling with the rod in a rod holder- but again it is an issue more of "preference/appearance(looks logical to have the guides under and pointing back in this case)" than it is of perceived performance. It's all up to you. I really don't think it makes any perceiveable difference in performance either way. It would be different for heavy salt rods-makes all kinds of sense for them.

Tom Kirkman Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Then I'm not sure what your builder is going to be
> doing, other than assembling a rod to your
> supplied specs. That type of builder doesn't rate
> much in terms of a fee.
>
> When you employ a good custom rod builder, most of
> the associated cost is associated with what he
> knows - his experience and knowledge. You might
> want to seek one of those out.
>
> ................

In all due respect Tom, I'm not following your logic at all. I was under the impression that distinguished or "picky" anglers who can't find the exact thing they want off the shelf, then they turn to a cutom. Thus the term "custom". If I wanted a builder to just imagine up specs he likes and do a build, then it wouldn't be a custom would it?...

Quite honestly this is the most contrary point I've seen anyone make, ever, about custom rods. And I do only use the best builders, and they prefer to know what I want ahead of time.

If I wanted only a very vague idea of what my rod would be specifically, and wanted no choice or control in the design and performance of the rod. To be honest, I wouldn't even be posting on here, as I would be buying off the shelf Cabela's or Bass Pro house brand rods.

No disrespect, but apparently you and I completely disagree as to what a custom rod is, and what the customer's role is in the rod's design.

I was in the custom rod business for many years. One thing I would not do, is build a rod to the customer's specs. Big mistake if you plan to make any money at custom rod building. If the customer knew the ins and outs of custom rod building, he wouldn't be on my doorstep.

What I did was have the customer tell me what he wanted to accomplish with the rod. What he was having trouble with on his previous or current rod. What his goals were. Then I had him rely on my experience to deliver a product that did exactly what he wanted it to do.

If you have to gather up this sort of information to take to a builder, I can only imagine that your builder is severely lacking in experience and/or knowledge. Of course, that sort of thing - wisdom and experience - costs money. If you simply want someone to assemble a rod for you, then you'll get what you asked for, which due to your own lack of experience in custom rod building may result in something you won't like (remember, this is a small industry - I already know this has happened to you with an earlier custom rod).

If you went to a five star restaurant and ordered an entree, would you provide detailed recipe instructions for the supposedly competent chef? Would you go back into the kitchen and tell him how to prepare the dish, what ingredients to use, or how long to cook it? Or would you rely upon his expertise to provide your menu choice in a delicious and satisfying fashion based on his experience and skill?

............

No disrespect Sam, but it sounds to me like you want a rod assembler, not a custom rod builder. A good custom rod builder will be able to advise you on all the various spiral wrapping methods and the pros and cons of each. A rod assembler will just put together what you tell him.

When someone comes to me with a detailed blueprint of what they want I will build it but with the understanding that if they don't like the rod, it's on them. Not me. If they provide the total specs, then they provide their own "customer satisfaction" warranty. The few times I've done that it usually winds up with them bringing the rod back and paying me to do what I told them they should have done in the first place.

Sam,
Since, you have put the term "jerk bait" in the rod use equation, I certainly would NOT use a spiral wrap on the rod.

A spiral wrapped rod, and a jerk bait is not the very best combination.

It will work, but for that application, the conventional casting configuration - is a better solution.

Be safe
Roger

Tom Kirkman Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> What I did was have the customer tell me what he
> wanted to accomplish with the rod. What he was
> having trouble with on his previous or current
> rod. What his goals were.
>
> If you have to gather up this sort of information
> to take to a builder, I can only imagine that your
> builder is severely lacking in experience and/or
> knowledge... which due to your own lack of
> experience in custom rod building may result in
> something you won't like (remember, this is a
> small industry - I already know this has happened
> to you with an earlier custom rod).
>
> If you went to a five star restaurant and ordered
> an entree, would you provide detailed recipe
> instructions for the supposedly competent chef?
> Would you go back into the kitchen and tell him
> how to prepare the dish, what ingredients to use,
> or how long to cook it? Or would you rely upon his
> expertise to provide your menu choice in a
> delicious and satisfying fashion based on his
> experience and skill?
>
> ............


Sounds like you were building for customers who wanted a rod that was handmade, but weren't fine tuning down to the exact detail what the rod would do and what they expect. These are the types of people that buy a high end car, because they can say they own a high end car.

I want my car "dialed in" so to speak. And dialed in means different things to different people, and I for one would never let someone else's subjective opinion of what rod I need be the end game in a build. I know precisely what I want and how I want it done. I'm not inexperienced in any means, I'm very well versed in graphite and how it's produced, components, and I'm a highly skilled angler.
I just don't build my own yet because I don't have the tools, but that doesn't keep me from knowing what I want from a rod, and what quality looks like.
Besides every person fishes different and has different likes of what a perfect rod for each individual job; it always comes down to opinion.

And to think you know more than an angler knows about himself or how he fishes; well is very myopic view point, and screams my ego is too big to build the rod like you want it--so I'll do it my way. For some that's cool, I for one would never hire a builder that operates that way.

And for builders 4 out of my last five were Randmade rods, Peter Barrett, Matt Davis, and Darrell Diskey. Those aren't builders "severly lacking in knowledge" as you stated. So there's some of the toes you're stepping on with remarks like that. Like you said this is a small industry.

If you don't have any information to add to the thread then let's end this now. So far all you've done is sanctimoniously preached to me.

And as far as the restraunt analogy. I can see we are miles apart on how a custom gets done.
No I wouldn't tell him how prepare the recipe. But I would want to know what dish I'm ordering, how it's done (ie..medium rare, etc) and what the final product will look like. I would never sit down and say I'm hungry give me something with some meat, please decide for me as I can't make a decision on my own.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/19/2013 08:09PM by Sam Moore.

A good custom rod builder knows far more about building rods than his customer does. At least he should. The folks you mention, some of whom claim they have not actually built anything for you, indeed are good builders and know a great deal more than you do about rods and techniques. If you had told them what you wanted the rod to do, and simply let them build what you needed, instead of what you told them to build, you wouldn't have had to return rods and implore blank manufacturers to replace blanks because of what you termed "bad builds."

...........

Is this the save "Sam Moore" who was just banned on Tackle Tour for similar trolling? Or about a half dozen other fishing sites for the same stuff. He may not know how to build a rod he sure knows how to TROLL. You guys are being played.

Yes, a few of us are aware of what's been going on. Thus the point of my first post in this thread.

............

Love it Tom

yes he has tried to have several of us build for him ????

Bill - willierods.com

Bill, You too? I would wager that he's contacted a couple dozen or more of the builders on this forum and peppered them about building him a rod. He picks your brain and then after you spend your valuable time answering his questions he asks for a quote and then you never heard from him again. Anybody else?

Ken

I am sitting her watching the snow melt
Thank you I had a good laugh

You are right as rain
Me and a few i know
Did not think it had such a -- following --- Ha Ha

heck and I thought I was bad !!!!

Bill - willierods.com



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/19/2013 08:59PM by bill boettcher.

I don't see any long opinionated posts from Mr Moore after the last few!!

ESFNEM Col
Port Kembla, NSW
Australia

He tried to do the same thing over on our rodbuildingforum.com a while back

Ron Weber