Hi everybody,

I plan to build a flipping rod with a Batson IMB 944 blank.

I would like to use FUJI KR Concept Guides with a slow spiral.

Guides will be :

Butt guide: BKWAG 10

Reduction guide :BKWAG 6

Running guides: BKBAG 4,5 (X7)

Top : BMNAT 6 (6)

I would like to use a 65lbs Stren braid and a leader made with 40lb Berkley Trilene bigame fluorocarbon tied with a SEBILE knot.

I have never used micros so do you know if the leader knot will rightly run through the 4,5 micros ?

Thanks a lot for your help.
Regards
Franck

OK

Looked at the blank in question and it is rated for 12/20 lb mono ??? I assume

If you use 65 lb braid it will be well over-lined ??

Some one can correct me if I am wrong here But with 20 lb braid it is ??? Over lined
Braid being stronger then mono

I realize that a lot of blanks are under rated -- But

Bill - willierods.com

Hi Bill,

You're right, but this rod is for me and I know that.

I would like to use a 65lbs braid not for its breaking strength but for its abrasion strength . I always set my reel drag with a spring scale when I use braid or mono stronger than my rod.

Franck
Been using Flipping sticks with 3 mm Batson Micros for about 5 years, with up to 65 lb. braid, (but I don't use leaders). If you tie a tight enough knot I don't think you should have a problem with 4.5 mm guides.
Also been using them with 80 lb braid on Alabama rig rods.

I have yet to break a Batson blank because of braided line.

Bill in answer to your question.
If a line is rated 20 lb test- it matters not what it is made out of , Mono, Floro, Braid, or Steel cable. It's still going to break at or close to its rated line strength.

Franck,
Maybe, but why?
If you are going to run a size 6 tip, which will nicely pass leaders and knots, why not just size your running guides as size 6 as well.

You will not be able to feel the weight difference in using this rod, whether you use the smaller guides or the size 6 guides.

You will just not have knot and line issues with the size 6 at all.

But, certainly if you want to go with the smaller guides; by all means do so. It would probably be best if you didn't run knots through the smaller guides though to avoid any issues at all.

Roger

p.s.
As Mr. Kirkman has said many times before - use the right material on the rod that you are building for the purpose that the rod is designed to do.
Just because you have very large guides, or very tiny guides does not mean that a particular guide should be used on that particular rod.

Use the guide type and size that makes sense for the rod, reel, type fishing, and fisherman.

I'll agree with roger, but hey it's yours do what you want. As long as you can pass knots you'll be fine.

Sorry if I am out of line on my next comment but its not directed at the OP, just a general comment on bass fisherman using 65 lb braid to catch a 4-5 lb fish that frankly doesn't stress tackle that much. I have landed largemouths at my local pond up to 6 lbs with more than a clump of weeds attached to them and I landed the bass with 8 lb mono on a light action steelhead spinning rod. To each his own of course but if the outcome is certain then the sport is gone IMHO.

Flame suit on. Peace.

if the knots pass with no problems go for it
I was just wondering about breaking the blank Guess if it is handled well no problems

Bill - willierods.com

Thanks a lot for all your answers.

Usually I use size 6 running guides for this king of rod, but I would like to try micros, except if it is nonsense.

I know that use 65lbs braid for Bass or for Pike is an aberration (except for Bigbaits), but in a heavy cover you can land a Bass or Pike but also a Bass with 100 lbs of weed ^^

I must use a clear leader because in France, catch a Bass with a braid without a leader is just a dream ^^

This braid diameter also avoid to redo the leader knot all the time because the first 50th inches of the braid are abraded on deadwoods or other things.


I will try to build this rod with micros, and if I become crazy, I will strip all micros and rebuild the rod with 6 size running guides.

Thanks a lot for your Help ^^

Best regards.

Franck



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/06/2012 05:55AM by Franck ZENK.

Franck
There are definitely advantages to use Micros even when using a 6 mm tip
Including but not limited to:
1. Reduced rod and tip weight "THAT YOU CAN FEEL"

2. Improved blank response- due to the reduced guide train, thread, and epoxy weight

3. Less fatigue at the end of the day -due to the reduced guide train, thread and epoxy weight

4. Improved bite detection because the balance point is further

5. Improved line control- improving pitching and casting distances

Below are some Rod forum threads from few years back that will answer most of your questions concerning Micro Guides
There is much reading but the knowledge you gain makes the reading worth it

Vol 1: [www.rodbuilding.org]

Vol 2: [rodbuilding.org]

Vol 3: [rodbuilding.org]

Vol 4: [rodbuilding.org]

Vol 5: [rodbuilding.org]

Not to confuse the guides size issue, but TEST and CLASS are saying two very different things on fishing line labeling.
Lines rated 20lbs TEST seldom if ever break at 20lbs for marketing reasons.

Test means will not break BELOW that point where CLASS means it will not go ABOVE that point.

If you ever dream of an IGFA record, better make sure you got CLASS not TEST line.

just another way rods and blanks SHOULD be labeled

Bill - willierods.com

on a slow spiral, i usually just use a size 7 for the first guide and then the same sized micro runners. single foot guides don't seem to give you as much clearance from the blank, but in a slow spiral, the transition isn't as extreme - just mock them with a reel and and line through it (add load) to tweak the placement.

4.5s should pass your knots ok. i'm not familiar with a sebile knot, but a uni knot doesn't seem to have much trouble.

Regards,
-Justin

The original question here was about "KR Concept guides" spiral wrapped. In practice, KR Concept principals could be used but the KR Concept for casting rods calls for a standard KW10 a KW5.5 and runners of 4.5 or 4. So I guess the question becomes can you use these three guide sizes in a spiral wrap? I was asked recently about a KR Concept spiral wrap and am in the process of trying to work out the details, so I am interested in the feedback here. A KR Concept casting rod is about guide position and size and uses existing K-Series guides with the exception of the big footed KB. Once you spiral wrap...is it still a KR Concept rod? I'm not sure.

I plan to use the sizes indicated by Fuji as a starting point and see how it goes. I also have a hunch that the height of the KL5.5H could be convenient on the 90-degree guide provided a single foot would hold up there. Thoughts??

Hi guys,

Steve: Thanks for the links, I will take time to read it . All your arguments are the reason that I want to build this rod with micros ^^

Justin: I agree with you and it's the reason that I never use a "simple spiral". The "slow spiral" and the "Forhan spiral" allow to use smaller and ligther guides.
I think that the Sébile knot is the thinnest knot which is possible to tie without a "rotoknotter". So if a "uni knot" runs well.... ^^

Jim: I wanted to try The KR Concept with a spiral to see if there's a mayor difference with a regular spiral wrap. But as you tell it, I don't know if a KR spiral rod is always a KR rod...
As Justin tells it, in a "slow spiral" the height of the reduction guide is less important than in a "simple spiral" where the reduction guide is at 90 degrees, so I think that a KW 5.5 will do the job as well as a KBAG 4.5.

After all, I will build this rod with this train of guide as Justin advises me:

BKTAG 7
BKBAG 4.5 (x8)
BMNATT 6 (6)

Thanks a lot again for all your help ^^

Franck

I would like to mention - i'm typically using BLNAG or Kigan guides - i haven't used the kr fujis - as Jim pointed out. Given the performance of a bumper spiral vs a standard spiral vs conventional wrapping - i'd have a hard time beleiving there is much if any noticeable diference (good or bad) by using the KR guides. May be some benefits in the frame-height when it comes to spiralling however.

Good luck and let us know how it works.

Regards,
-Justin

I think you're right Justin, especially since a KR Casting rod IS a K-Series casting rod set up with micros and a size 10 stripper with a few KB's thrown in for strength. KR is a "point of view" on a casting rod and all the research was done with "on top" rods.
KR Concept casting rods:
1) DO use a size 10 stripper and a 5.5 transition to smooth and control line flow (contrary to micros all the way out)
2) DO use micros but never smaller than a 4 (contrary to 3mm rings all the way out)
3) DO use a specially designed KB mid-section runners to add strength in areas of documented stress (contrary to standard-footed runners that do not take the stress into account)

If you follow these three "ideas" you've built a KR Concept casting rod, pretty much.

To answer John's question, we use 65# braid with 1-2 oz weight, when punching thru hyacynth, which can grow a foot or more above the water. The braid is to combat the abrasion of the plants, not the fish. I have broken 65# braid on a hook set while punching. Punching is a great way to catch some good fish on the California Delta, but it takes stout line!

I have read Steve links and finally I will build my rod with KR guides.

I will use this train of guides:

BKWAG 10
BKWAG 5.5
BKBAG 4.5 (X7)

BMNAT 6 (6)

I wont use a specific spiral, but the spiral who will give me the straightest path from butt to top as Steven and Tom recommend it in theirs posts.

Rick: I would like to come fishing Bass in the Californian Delta in few years, so which is the best period for it, outside the spawn period ?

Thanks for your help.

Have a nice day.

Franck

I was catching fish up until Thanksgiving this year. I like late summer/early fall though; usually can get a top water or punching bite. Flipping is also good then. There is so much area and it 's tidal so you can usually find fish willing to bite!

Hi Rick,

Thanks a lot for these infos.


Regards.
Bye.

Franck