I understand a spinning or conventional blank does not reach full casting efficiency until it "locks down" (tip 90 degrees to butt) in a non-parabolic bend. Is this also the case for fly rod blanks? Seems like this should be the case, since blanks don't care what provides the weight they are casting.

Dr. Hanneman covered this pretty well in his original Common Cents article. There were quite a few graphs showing full loading and power of a number of popular fly rod models.

Just in case, there is a link to those articles in the sponsor column at the upper left. The first one has the information you're wanting.

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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/10/2012 12:10PM by Tom Kirkman.

I'll try the question another way. Dr. Hanneman defines a fully loaded fly rod as one deflected one-third of its length. At least one successful builder of distance-casting spin/conventional blanks defines a fully loaded ("locked down") rod as one where the tip is deflected 90 degrees to the butt.
Which will cast further, a fly rod loaded so it deflects 1/3 of its length, or the same rod loaded so its tip is deflected 90 degrees to its butt?

Keep in mind, that this amount of flex moves further and further towards the butt as more load is added. As long as you apply the load at that particular angle, a 90 degree flex can be maintained with various loads. With a horizontal rod and a vertical load, you will never exceed 90 degrees.

What Dr. Hanneman used for his measurements, is a rod flexed a distance that is equal to 1/3rd of it's length. If you read a bit more, you can see the chart where he plotted the various fly rods loaded to the extent that their makers each believed is the optimum or "fully loaded" point for that rod. I don't think any of them depicted a 90% angle to the load.

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Something else I should add here, is that the load on the rod is comprised of two parts - the weight being cast and the angler's input. A rod that does not flex to 90 degrees with a static load may well flex to that point (or beyond) once the angler puts some casting energy into it.

It's an interesting subject for sure, although an astute rod builder or fisherman can generally hang a weight on the end of a rod and with a little bouncing determine if that amount of weight is enough to get maximum distance from the rod and/or how much or how little effort he needs to impart to the cast to work with that amount of weight against the rod's power.

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«a spinning or conventional blank does not reach full casting efficiency until it "locks down"»

this statement intrigues me. do you know where I can learn about that?

_______________________________________________
If I'm not going to catch anything, then I'd rather not catch anything on flies.

Prostaff Rodhouse
[www.rodhouse.fr]

Laurent: www.breakawayusa.com/products/rods-blanks/ [see "Construction" paragraph]

I'm still curious why Dr. Hanneman defined 1/3 of blank length deflection as a fully loaded fly rod. The distance casters' assumption of a 90 degree bend to fully load a rod makes the Common Cents AA measurement inconsequential. I suspect the AA provides an indication of the rod's "feel" rather than its potential distance performance, unless there is a significant difference between the mechanics of a fly rod blank and a spin/conventional blank during the cast. For many fly casters, and rightly so, "feel" trumps distance in selecting a fly rod blank, especially for fishing small waters. Many others want to know what blanks have the best potential to throw a fly furthest into the wind. One system of evaluation and measurement is unlikely to best serve the interests of all fly fishers - or all people who fish with rods.
Where can I find a side-view high speed photograph (showing the fully loaded blank's deflection) of a skilled fly caster competing in a distance event?

By virtue of the rods tested and plotted, that was the amount of deflection which appeared to indicate a fully loaded rod.

AA is an angle used to determine if one rod possesses a faster or slower action than another rod. While both power and action contribute to "feel," that aspect is better represented by frequency.

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I'm left with two very different definitions of what constitutes a "fully loaded rod," both from reputable sources. Without agreement upon this most basic characteristic of a rod's mechanics I'm back to anecdotal testimony, which is always interesting but less often reliable. Perhaps this is why there is no widely accepted and objective system to measure a rod blank's mechanics.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 10/12/2012 02:02PM by Phil Ewanicki.

There is at least one - the Common Cents System. It is proven to work as it is based on the same system we use for measuring things such as temperature, weight, length, etc. If it doesn't work, than neither do any of these.

What you might do is go out and do some test casting of your own. I suspect you'll note that there is a sweet spot beyond which you do not gain further distance, and in fact, actually lose distance.

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Tom: When I make a shooting head out of a worn integrated line I over line the rod I intend to use and false cast more line until I feel the rod "fold up" - go beyond the fully loaded sweet spot. I mark this spot in the head at the tip top, cut back two or three feet, and splice in the running line. This test casting works for me, but I still don't know whether the blank is deflected 1/3 its length or 90 degrees at optimum load, even after the test. That information would help casting instructors and rod builders to better inform and serve their clients.

The whole 90 degree thing makes little sense to me - I can deflect a rod 90 degrees with almost no load and I can deflect it 90 degrees with an overload. I can deflect that amount in the tip, or the butt. This all has a great deal to do with the angle from which the load is applied. "90 degrees" is a bit vague.

I'm not sure that telling a client - "you have to deflect the rod 90 degrees (or an amount equal to 1/3rd of its length)" is going to make them a better caster. To deflect the rod further you just push harder, but that's hard to see when you're actually making the cast. At that point it becomes a matter of the angler's ability to feel what's going on there and that sort of thing can only be achieved by doing it enough to get an idea what a rod requires in order to get the most out of it. I can bounce a lure off the end of a rod a few times and know pretty much exactly how much effort will be required to get the maximum distance from it, but I couldn't do that when I was first starting out. And I doubt anything anyone could tell me would have allowed me to do it. It's something you have to learn by experience, I think.

The only way you're going to know how far you're deflecting the rod when you feel everything is optimum, is to film it.

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Tom: Just so, "film it," but I have no equipment to capture the film/digital images in question. I'm sure others have done so, but where are such images available? I remain particularly interested in images of accomplished distance fly casters attempting long casts when the rod blank is fully deflected. I apologize for being such a noodge, but actually seeing how much blank deflection produces the longest fly casts would be valuable to me in evaluating blanks and claims, and perhaps valuable to others as well.

I don't know where you could find such photos. Somewhere I've seen photos of Jimmy Green casting, but I wouldn't have any way of knowing if he was casting for all out distance in those particular photos.

The Golden Gate Casting Club might be your best source.

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take your rod outside Ty on a light lure test it -- add more heavier lures till you find the -- sweet-spot --

Bill - willierods.com

That's what I was afraid of, Bill. With a built-out rod in hand a lot of anglers can determine that blank's vital statistics by test-casting it. Still, rod buyers, sellers, and builders would like to know the properties and abilities of a rod blank and how it compares to other blanks before they buy it, sell it, or build it out. I'm starting to suspect it's impossible to devise a reliable system to objectively describe and compare the dynamic qualities of a rod blank because of the great variation in the skill of the casters who use them.
This isn't all bad, since it certainly increases the volume of rods bought, sold, and built.

That is why this site is the best on the net
For one you know who you are talking to You have there names Real names
Then there are so many builders here that some are bass builders some do more saltwater fishing
Some do only fly fishing
but you have such a wide variety of builders You will get good answers to any question

It all comes down to how much you want to play and find what works the best for the rods You Build

That is why I try to stay away from the Technical posts that are over my head heck it's a fishing rod LOL

Bill - willierods.com

Might want to look at the angles Joe Robinson gets with his UL Spinning Rods: [youtu.be] . . . I'd say he's mighty close to 135-degrees