So a couple of weeks ago, I asked about a finish problem I was having where my entire finish was fisheying all over the blank...hundreds of them. I have never in the past 10 years had a problem with finish. I worked on tweaking air circulation, possible contaminants, and rod prep. I even opened a new finish to eliminate that possibility. All seemed fine. Next rod, 3rd coat blows up again. Arg. I babied it until I got all of it good excepts the butt wrap. It continues to fisheye like crazy. I finally sanded, washed with dawn and water. Rinsed thoroughly, cleaned with denatured alcohol, and then scuffed with a scothcbrite. And still, fisheyes. My question is could it be that the contaminant is in the lower coats of finish and the new finish cannot set up on top of it (in which case I would have to remove threads and finish and start over) or would it be more likely to be airborne? I am just stumped, and more than a bit frustrated.

Thanks.

Hello Dan.

I'm thinking airborne or something that you might be picking up on your hands, did you take a break just after putting on the last coat then come back and check on it, then maybe bring something back into the room with you on clothing hair or hands?

Good Luck and let us know if you figure out what keeps doing this to your epoxy.

Tight Wraps.

Bob,

New Bern, NC.

Have you tried applying epoxy to a different rod?

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Why did not the first two coats Blow Up
You must have brought some thing into the finish room
Try to think of what you did after the first two coats

Bill - willierods.com

You're going to have to eliminate items one by one. Try making a few wraps on another rod blank or scrap. If that one can be successfully finished, then the problem is on the original rod. If not, then the problem is somewhere else - in the brush, in the mixing cups, the room itself, etc.

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if the butt wrap is different thread then the guide wraps Could be the thread
if different thread on the guides - maybe it took time for the contaminants to get into the air and lay on the guide wraps
Just a thought

Bill - willierods.com

Dan,
I noticed in your clean up procedure, that you cleaned with DNA after cleaning with soap and water.

This is one part of the procedure that I would omit from your procedure.

For the few times that I have had issues as you mention, I tried using a clean with DNA or other solvent. The end result was that the fish eye was much worse after cleaning with DNA than before.

My personal feeling is that the only time that there should be DNA on the rod is during the initial cleanup of the blank.

After that, I think it is NOT a good idea to use any sort of solvent on the blank or on the wraps. Just too many issues with non compatibility with a solvent and a finish.

The only thing that I ever use to clean a blank after wrapping is to use compressed air and blue painters tape to tack off any dust that might have gotten on the wraps.

Never never use a solvent on the wraps before applying finish.

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Since you have had the problem a 2nd time - after not having a problem for a while - are you back to using the same thread that you used three weeks ago.

What thread did you use in between? Just wondering if you have a bad spool or spools of thread that are causing your problem. This was the problem that happened to me. I happened to pick up a name brand spool of thread that instantly caused fish eyes as soon as finish was applied.

The solution was simple. Cut all of the wraps off of the rod, clean up the rod blank, throw away that spool of thread, buy a new spool of thread, re wrap and re coat and no more issues.

To have the problem that you are having, I doubt very much that the problem is air borne.

I would guess that the problem is more likely caused by the materials being used - i.e. the blank, the thread, or something that is being applied to the wraps by yourself in the form of something that is on your fingers and then being transferred to your rods.

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You DO wash, rinse and dry your hands every time that you go into your rod shop to wrap rods don't you? You do insure that your hands are 100% dry don't you.

You never eat when you are wrapping rods do you?

If you do eat when you wrap rods, you stop wrapping, move away from your rod, fishing eating, leave the room, wash and dry your hands before going back to wrapping don't you?

Simply put, grease from eating can easily be transferred to thread and cause fish eyes.

Skin oil if excessive, can be transferred to the thread and cause fish eyes.

Any form of silicone can cause fish eyes.

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Look back at all of the rods that you have built that have had fish eye problems. Can you identify the spools of thread that were used to wrap each rod? Is one part of the rod worse than others, and does it have a different color on it?

Good luck
Roger

Well, I applied to a spare blank and ended up with the same results. So there is a contaminant rampant somewhereI do fish mounts in adjacent rooms, so it may be from one of those mediums, though I cannot think of any that have silicon or oil. Soooo, I will remove rod from this setting, try with same cups, brushes, and mixing sticks and see if the contaminant is in the room. thanks for all of the replies.

Dan,
By the way, what was your blank preparation, after installing the handle and just before you start laying out guides on your rod for wrapping?

i.e. do you do a wipe down with solvent? Do you wash with soap and water? Do you do anything?

For the rods that you have had fish eye issues, was anything different on these rods compared to other rods - on which you had no issues?

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Just an off the wall comment -
In recent weeks, many folks from all over the country have reported a large influx of little creatures like mice etc. getting into their homes and shops. This has apparently been made worse by the huge dry times that have covered much of the country. For example - in my garage, I just trapped mouse number 11 in the last two weeks. Never an issue before this year.

In that vein, you didn't happen to get a little creature get into your rod shop between the 2nd and 3rd coats and get to your rod did it?

I have heard of stranger things happening.

Good luck
Roger

Mouse eyes?

Dan,
You say -" try again with the same cups, brushes and mixing sticks. "

Don't you use new clean cups for every batch of epoxy in the form of a small plastic cup?
Don't you use disposable brushes, so that you use a new brush for each rod?

Don't you use craft sticks so that you use new sticks for mixing each batch of finish?

If the answer is no to these questions, and if you use any type cleaner to clean

cups, brushes, or mixing sticks, you could be getting contamination from your cleaning solvent.

What do you use for cleaning solvent, if you do clean any of the sticks, brushes, or cups?

If you use DNA, this could be your issue. DNA can and does cause fish eye if there is even the tiniest bit of DNA that is not 100% dry before the item is being used.

On the other hand - Xylene - is a solvent that is 100% compatible with both assembly epoxies, as well as finish epoxies. So, if you use Xylene for cleaning and even if the Xylene is not 100% dry, there will be 0 issues with fish eyes.

Having said that, you do need - industrial lab - air circulation setup to insure that you don't have issues with Xylene fumes.

Good luck
REW

Thanks. I always use disposable sticks and cups, but sometimes I change brands without giving it any thought. I use high quality brushes and clean with epoxy cleaner and soap and water. I am using the same setup that I have used for 15 years and I had only one issue, about a decade ago, and that was a problem with me not mixing the exact ratios right (I wasn't paying attention). So to have this pop as a pattern makes me believe it is my environment, which is a new building. I don't know what it is in the environment, but I wi keep checking.

Brought the rod home and applied finish. Waiting to see how it sets.

Dan,
Are you the sole occupant of the building or are there others - or other businesses in the building?

i.e. is it possible that contamination could be coming from other building occupants - if there are any.

Roger

What are you using to measure your epoxy with? If you use syringes and they have rubber plungers, those plungers may be coated with a silicone lubricant! Beware.

Ha! Came home and recoated. Smooth as glass. So now I know I have something in my building, most likely from the fish mounting. I will continue the hunt and keep the two separate until I discover the cause. Thanks all for your help.

Dan,
Here is another list of potential areas to check from a surf building blog.
Although a different product, the finish is essentially the same with the same preparation needs.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Fish Eyes are always an issue of comtamination......always. Used sand paper, old rags, lotion on you hands, dish washing soap, bad quality laytex gloves, something in the old epoxy cup, something in the epoxy bottle (water? Condensation). Final sand before hotcoat should go like this:

1) hands washed with bar soap and hot water. Dry with PAPER towel.....Not the towel your wife uses in the kitchen (wifes and the diseases they carry are the #1 cause of surfboard contamination...make-up, lotions, purfume, sprays etc, etc...all lodge in that contaminated thing they call a towel.)

2) sand with fresh sheet of 150 grit from middle of stack.

3) make sure during this time you didn't go anywhere and contaminate your hands and come back....(think about that front door handle you wife has lotion or lords knows what all over, or that bathroom door knob you slathered with vasoline from your last solo romantic encounter.)

3) Wipe board off with fresh PAPER towel.

3a) Check you racks for disease......fresh tape on the glassing stand is a must, (I've had 4 little contimation spots on a board before, right where the tape hits the bottom or deck.....I used old tape because it was still sticky, but the board before was a ding repair, and surfboard wax as left behind)

4) New fresh container to mix ingredients, 5) look for condensation in all containers of epoxy, if possible keep ingredients in smaller and smaller containers as material dwindles. A full container will get less condensation than an empty one.

5) Do not dilute epoxy with anything....no denatured nothing. If it's too cold don't laminate, or hotcoat. Make sure you are working in the proper temperature for the material you are working with....It's simple, keep it simple

6) Use a throw away brush to hot coat. If laminating clean you spreader with a old chunks of fiberglass cloth. Don't clean then with "acetone, denatured whatever, simple green stuff, or orange gogoju.

Thanks, Roger. I do know that the building is not well insulated and we have had a few days of rain and high humidity. I run a dehumidifier, but with opening and closing the door, the humidity is pretty high. Most epoxies say that when mixed correctly, they will set regardless of humidity. Has anyone had experience otherwise in high humidity?

Humidity won't affect the set or cure of your epoxy and it certainly won't cause fish eyes.

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X10 On Tom's comment.
The only thing that I have ever seen happen when curing epoxies in high humidity environment is a possible blushing of the finish due to trapping moisture in the finish.

Roger

Would airborne laquer thinner from the airbrush be the culprit?