I've built two fly rods so far, using 2 coats of Permagloss on each, and with the first a single foot guide became loose. I was able topull it out of the thread and then insert it back in. I rewrapped the guides, but now on my second rod, the stripper guide is loose in the same way. I can't remove it, but it moves up and down between the two wraps. This second rod had two coats of CP as well. Are my wraps not tight enough? They haven't seen a lot of use and they have been treated well. These have been inexpensive builds, I'd like to figure it out before I move onto some more expensive blanks.

Finish protects thread, thread holds guides.

Sounds like they are too loose. Also if you used the Forhan locking wrap you would not be able to pull a single foot "out." See the Library for instructions on this wrap. Having never used Perma Gloss on wraps, I can't comment re it.

The right tensions will allow you to move the guides a little before coating, but should not be loose.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/20/2012 10:00PM by Phil Erickson.

My guess is that it's the CP and that it wasn't sealed enough and water got in and ruined the integrity of the wrap. Try it without the CP and my guess is you'll have no more problems.

The dark integrated colors of no CP look better on a fly rod anyway.

Drew

You'll get a stronger bond with just straight finish and no cp, and as Drew pointed out - fly rods look better done this way.

Jersey, Channel Islands. (U.K.)

Abram,

I've had similar issues on a couple of my first builds. Make sure you get CP, PG, or epoxy in the tunnels that run along the guide foot. Also make sure that you get some finish to encapsulate the guide just as it makes the turn away from the blank. The epoxy that gets in front of the guide, and runs alongside the guide helps keep it in place. As mentioned a Forhan locking wrap is a good addition. Also, the Kigan Z series and Fuji K series guide have a 'finish window' that when you push finish through will help lock the guide in place as well.

Joe

Abram, Did you dress the underfoot of your guides? Its very important to creat a saddle on small guides to preven the rocking chair effect.Actually all guides shuld be dressed for maximum contact with the blank.

Dennis J. Danku
(Sayreville,NJ)

Joe

Not to be a bonehead The thread holds the guide on not the finish
Fuji has a lot of things But Some do not make sense

Bill - willierods.com

Hey guys, thanks for the replies. My thread tension was such that I could pull thread off between thumb and forefinger without any problem, something I think I read here. The guide feet were dressed pretty well I think, those 1/0 single foots are tough. :) Could be a lack of finish, I didn't really get it under the guide foot, my main goal was to keep it neat. Any other ideas I'd love to hear them.

The use of color preserver will not cause your guides to come loose. The problem lies elsewhere.

...............

I keep hearing "the thread holds the guide and the finish only protects the thread". I have never had a problem with moving guides on a rod that had finish on it. However I did test cast my first acid wrapped rod. I was on new ground so I went as far as to completely wrap each double foot guide as normal. It didn't take very many test casts for me to rip the guide loose.

I'd like to know why if the finish offers no strenght.

Russ in Hollywood, FL.

The thread binds the guide and provides the strength. The finish simply sets it in place.

Try adhering guides with no thread, only epoxy. They'll pop right off. The thread is what holds them to the rod blank.

...............

Tom Kirkman Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The thread binds the guide and provides the
> strength. The finish simply sets it in place.
>
> Try adhering guides with no thread, only epoxy.
> They'll pop right off. The thread is what holds
> them to the rod blank.
>
> ...............


No doubt, but the two together, thread and epoxy, make a composite which is far better than either alone. Kind of like Concrete and re-bar or graphite and resin for that matter. For the original poster, it sounds like water got under your finish. Since there is only water soluble color preserver there, the thread failed/unravelled/lost tension. Had no CP been there, your rod would still be good, because the finish would have soaked into and bound the threads. Not saying it's the fault of the CP, just the fault of the way the finish did not fully encapsulate the wrap. Try it without CP. It will be better.

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Herb Ladenheim

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Bill,

Let me ask you this. Do you put a steel object in the bed of a truck and put a weight on top to keep it from moving? Do you put something with wheels in there and expect it to stay put? That is essentially what you are asking your thread wraps to do, if you believe that the thread wraps alone keep the guide in place. The thread only restricts movement in one direction radially outward. It does not prevent motion around the blank or along the blank. It only does so until the force of static friction is exceeded. Keep in mind that guides, blanks, and nylon thread are all pretty slick materials, meaning the coefficient of static friction is low between steel and graphite(or urethane coated graphite) ~0.1, and steel and nylon (haven't found a number but imagine it is similar ~0.1). Don't believe me, just look at all the threads asking about keeping a guide in place while wrapping. By the way, the coefficient of static friction between clean (unoxidized) steel and clean steel is ~0.78.

What does the coefficient of static friction mean? It is the constant, when multiplied by the force (Normal Force) pushing two surfaces together, that tells you how hard you have to pull to start movement. With many material combinations, once motion is started, the coefficient of sliding friction becomes lower than the coefficient of static friction, meaning that it is easier to keep it moving once it starts. Now back to some simple math, a coefficient of static friction of 0.1 tells you that you need 10lbs. of normal force for each pound that you pull on the guide to keep it from moving. Given that we have two surfaces with similar coefficients of static friction, we get double the friction, meaning that we need only about 5lbs. of normal force for each pound that we pull on the guide from our wraps to keep the guide in place. It's not inconceivable to believe that we get enough normal force from the tension in the thread alone to keep the guide in place when you pull the guide with several pounds of force. Also, keep in mind that the amount of normal force applied by the thread is directly proportional to the number of wraps over the guide foot, meaning shorter feet will require less force to pull out than long feet. What happens then when the guide hangs on something and the rod suddenly stops. During this sudden change in momentum, the forces applied to the guide can become very high for a short period of time (the reason that a ropes working load is significantly lower than its tensile strength). As soon as the maximum force of static friction is exceeded, the guide will pull out. It's not so much how hard the bass guys pull rods out of their rod lockers that cause more guide pull outs, it's the sudden stop when a guide hangs that causes the problem.

There is, however, a simple solution to assisting the thread keep the guide in place, and it is the same solution that you use when you put something in the bed of your truck. Chock the wheels (i.e. fill the tunnels of the guide wrap), and provide a barrier to keep the load from sliding around (get epoxy in front of the guide, and use a Forhan wrap when applicable). These techniques, combined with making sure that your finish goes just beyond the edge of the thread and down onto the blank will help keep the guide in place by reducing its movement around and along the blank, as well as aiding in preventing water intrusion to the wraps.

Joe

Finish does indeed add strength to any guide wrap. 2 part system, as Joe pointed out.

Tom,

I dis-agree. The use of CP can indeed cause your guides to "come loose", key here: with IMPROPER CP USE. Meaning: if the color preserver (CP) isn't totally encased in thread finish the guide can fail due to the CP allowing moisture to sneak under the finish and De-laminating the finish, thread, and then loss of the guide. I surely know you already know this, but others reading may not.

Bottom line: keep your CP on the threads only, and always take your finish PAST the CP sealing the CP totally under the finish.

Any guide wrap without CP is a stronger guide wrap.

DR

Would you say a larger guide would need a tighter wrap? It's the larger guides that are causing the problem for me, although they aren't especially large ones. Thanks Joe for that post, learnt a lot from it. :)

Yes, generally, you can get by with and need a little more tension on the larger guides near the butt. Because the guides are taller and larger, you can apply more torque to them when you try to move them or they catch on a finished rod. More tension in the thread will help keep them in place a tad better. The goal is to wrap them so they are snug, but still able to be adjusted after the wrap is complete. If you can't move the guide, it's too tight. If you have to worry about every little bump, the tension is too light. The smaller guides near the tip usually require a bit less tension. When I wrap, I usually start at the butt and work toward the tip. I'll set the tension for the butt guide, and leave it there until it starts getting tougher than I expect to adjust the guide, I'll back down the tension on the next guide and keep working.

One other thing that can help keep the guide in place is to use guides with contoured feet, like the Amtak single foots, the Kigan Z series, Alps micros, and others. The arrow shapes and notches vary the curvature of the thread as it wraps around the guide and help prevent pullout. At times packing and burnishing thread on these guides can be challenging, especially when you start adjusting guides. Packing and burnishing becomes a bit more challenging with these guides. Sometimes gaps form and are a pain to remove. Of course, with double foot guides, most everything has straight feet.

Joe

I am going to take exception to a few things posted here on this topic. Thread holds the guides in place, color preserver is supposed to maintain the color of the thread, and the rod finish is supposed to keep everything in place for years.
One poster said that finish alone can not secure the guides. I worked with Ralph O'Quinn of Trondak, and one day he showed me a light spinning rod that he had attached the guides on with just his Perma Gloss finish. I was doubtful, but after taking the rod out and casting it, I was convinced. It worked, and worked well...I have never had a guide come loosewhen the finish and color preserver was properly applied. That is in over 40 years of rod building. Attention to detail is the answer along with the proper choice of finishes.

Randy