I have several questions regaeding the use of metalic thread, I searched the forum but didn't find my answer. Do you get adequate penetration of your thread finish (Pro Kote) to the blank when metalic thread is used or does that need to happen? Should guides be wrapped in metalic thread? Under wrapping guides, should you apply a coat of thread finish to the underwrap before you wrap the guides? I look forward to any help given, thank you in advance! Any input here is greatly appreciated.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 08/14/2012 03:32PM by Charles Nichols.

Not all metallic thread is suitable for guide wrapping. Epoxy cannot actually "penetrate" any sort of metallic nor even regular nylon wrapping thread. They are closed cell materials and do not absorb anything. Generally, epoxy will reach the blank as it seeps in-between the thread. This is true with metallics as well.

A thin coat of either color preserver or epoxy can be helpful in providing a smoother base for an overwrap. It also helps to use a smaller diameter thread for the underwrap and a larger diameter thread for the overwrap.

Underwraps are typically not required on most rods, although it's not going to hurt anything on larger and heavier rods if you do use them.

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Tom, thank you for your help first of all! Is it important for the epoxy to reach the blank on a guide wrap? I was under the impression that is was the wrap that holds the guide and the epoxy holds the wrap in one place? Please correct me if i'm off base here! Again, thank you so much for your help!

The wraps hold the guide on the rod. The epoxy protects the wraps. You could acually build and fish a rod without any finish on the thread. The abrasion from every day use would wear through the thread fairly quickly and once a thread breaks there goes the guide.

Bruce

Bruce pretty well outlined it for you. I will say, however, that getting something (CP or epoxy) down alongside the edges of the guide feet creates a shoulder that stabilizes the guide against rocking or turning. Putting a drop or two of finish into the tunnel at the outside of that area helps here, too. Generally, unless your epoxy is exceptionally thick or cold, you'll get enough into and through the thread to do all that needs to be done.

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Hi Charles,
If you've got a small set of scales do a few strength tests on the thread before use. On the ones I did I used 300mm(1 foot) of thread and slowly pulled until it broke and watched the scales to get a max reading. I did most of my test on madeira, pacbay and gudebrod thread and some on mettler metallics. The thread was breaking around 1kg(2.2lbs) while the mettler metallic broke around the 0.5 kg mark. I had a fair bit of trouble with the metallic breaking on a test wrap until I got the tension right. I'd be looking for a breaking strain of over 0.7kg (11/2lbs) before using it on a guide wrap.
I find that I get better epoxy adhesion when using underwraps than without. The stuff doesn't adhere all that well to shiny blanks and I find that the underwrap gives the epoxy something to get hold of. I put both bindings on before applying finish and thast works for me as I don't have much problem packing the overwrap and the epoxy can then adhere to all the thread. As Tom has suggested it's a good idea to get finish in the tunnels next to the guide foot as that can secure the foot to the blank or underbinding. Lot of guys use metallics for guide wraps but I only use it for trim and highlights. If your worried about strength the do a test wrap on a scrap piece of blank, then after a few days see if you can pull the guide out. On the ones I did I had to wiggle the guide with pliers to get the epoxy to crack before the guide would come out. Couldn't get it out with a straight pull. The tests were on single overbindings without any locking wraps.

ESFNEM Col
Port Kembla, NSW
Australia

Col., thank you for your advice that helps me a lot. Its nice to know there are folks out there willing to help, I hope one day I know enough to help someone else!

Bruce thank you so much for your help!

Also the first coat weather it be CP or finish if a thin coat replaces air in the wrap and tends to eliminate air bubbles

Bill - willierods.com

Hello All,
I would just like to summarize the results of wrap strength/pull out tests performed at our location because I think it is relevant here. We found that rod finish has a profound effect on the strength of a wrap. Wraps that had finish on them were found to consistently be 300%+ stronger than wraps with no finish on them (using size A nylon thread.) This would indicate a collaborative relationship between the two items similar to rebar and concrete. Locking wraps were a much smaller factor in the strength only adding about 12%.

-The Batson TEAM
BatsonEnterprises.com

What type of locking wrap? With a Forhan wrap, it is more than possible to destroy the rod before you'll strip the guide out of the wrap.

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WOW, thank all of you so much I feel much better about moving forward!!

Actually one last question and I will leave you guys alone! I struggle so much with getting guides straight and I know there has to be a secret to it that I haven't discovered yet!!!!

Not really - most just eyeball them after they're wrapped and make minute adjustments as needed.

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After the seat and handle are on I put my bands on and glue the tip top on Then when I wrap the guides I start at the tip and work down to the butt This way I line up the guides with the tip top as I wrap along the rod

Make sure the top is aliened with the seat and reel

I can not see starting at the butt and trying to aline the butt guide with the top first

Bill - willierods.com



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/15/2012 01:11PM by bill boettcher.

Yes, working tip to butt will result in straighter guides than if you go the other way. I find that some adjustment is still necessary though.

Eyeball the guides down the length of the rod and push them gently to line them up. Your tension should be such that they are quite snug, but will move with some pressure. If they move too easily, then your tension is too loose. If you can't move them at all, then it's too tight.

Terry

Plus with lighter rod blanks the pain is wrapping the tip several guides
This way you get them done first -- then it just gets easyer

Bill - willierods.com