I am just curoius, I read about using lighter guides and the weights of different components to get a lighter rod, but then when they go into wrapping those tiger wraps and those decorative wraps, what would a 10th of a gram or whatever the - or + of weight compared to another guide or reel seat matter when a tiger wrap or deco. wrap is put on, seems to me the weight of the wraps would make those smaller weight of the guides and the reel seat ect.. insignificant. just a thought. Tight wraps you all! and a nice weekend!

Lighter guides, minima and exposed blank reel seats, and split grips all lead to increased sensitivity.
Smaller, lighter guides in the top half of the rod decrease the swing weight, which is much more important than absolute weight.
Decorative wraps are near the grip so they don't impact swing weight as significantly. The extra weight can actually help with balance which can make a rod more enjoyable to fish, especially in tip up applications.

Those of us that builds or tries to build the lightest rods possible don't usually do tiger or decorative wraps on our rods.

Lance

Hi Lorenzo,
Rick and Lance have pretty well nailed it. Decorative wraps in the split area of a rod can often help with balance. Light as guides on the top half cut down the weight where it matters most and help with making a seven footer less tip heavy also lessen what is required for balance. If your rod is well balanced without anything added at the butt end, then leave it as is, go fish with it and enjoy it. Took my light weight Hi modulus MHX rod to a friends yesterday to show him the micro guides as he'd never seen them. His first comment when he picked it up was "Jeez it's light" and that one has a decorative wrap in the spilt, more for balance than anything else.

ESFNEM Col
Port Kembla, NSW
Australia

I think his point is why go through the trouble of weight savings with reel seats and split grips, then put the weight back on teh rod with epoxy.

Hi,

I weighed a fluke bucktail rod (built for shallow water jigging using teasers and/or very light weight lead heads) that I had designed/crafted the way I would normally do. Then I built a new rod designed for minimum weight and MAXIMUM SENSITIVITY. I used the same model blank, eliminated the grips, used light weight guides/tip top, one guide wrap the shortest possible and the minimum amount of finish. This rod weighed in with 30% LESS WEIGHT than the original. The one change I offer now is X Wrap shrink tubing where the butt grip would normally be so the angler won't have the rod slip out of his hand. It works and serious fluke anglers, shallow water/light lures, enjoy and realize the benefit.

What I accomplished is fact as weighing the rods is very objective. The big question is how much sensitivity is saved? That is very subjective. To be honest I have no idea! The anglers understand the idea and want a very light weight sensitive strong rod.

I do feel that weight around the reel does not affect sensitivity greatly. i could be wrong about that!

Blank manufacturers are designing fantastic blanks for us today using the space age materials. Even less expensive blanks are very worthy of being used. These blanks are lighter in weight and very strong.

Many anglers are looking for light weight rods as it makes catching more fun. Present day fish regulations require us to catch bigger fish in order to bring home dinner AND the bag limit has decreased greatly. Many of my fishing friends fish lighter. For example we were able to keep 10 black fish a few years ago. Now we have a shorter season and a daily bag limit of 4 fish.

Capt Neil Faulkner

You took the words right out of my mouth Billy, and Lance when I want a lighter rod I don't put a tiger wrap or an deco wrap, I put both on an Hi modulus MHX rod and after it was done said to myself , "should of left as is" lol! But they do look nice.

It seems a lot of time, money and effort is expended to build the "most sensitive" rod. The dimensions, weight, rigidity and harmonics of a rod can be measured objectively, but I have never seen any objective measurement of a rod's "sensitivity" - only subjective claims. Is there any objective measurement of "sensitivity?" The only demonstrations I have been shown of rod sensitivity indicated to me that a broomstick's sensitivity is identical to that of a nano-rhodium rod blank.

Phil,
I suspect that the best meausre of rod sensitivity would be how many fish does one particular rod put in the boat compared to another rod.

After all, catqching fish is the name of the game in this business. i.e. building a tool to catch a fish.

Also, using that criteria, I wouldn't be at all suprised to find that sometimes the rod that is reputed to be less sensitive actually puts more fish in the boat.

Lets not all lose sight of the reason that we are building rods.

Roger

I'll agree that "putting fish in the boat" is the best measure. When one rod outperforms another it is easy to focus of something like sensitivity. At the end of the day maybe we just like fishing with that particular rod better and therfore put forth more effort with it? Funny but my secrets for success are at opposite ends. I can get hyper focused and immersed in what I'm doing....or I can lay the rod down and do any number of things......from opening a beer to lighting a smoke to taking a leak. Both pay dividends but I'm inclined to say Murphy's law applies. A fish will strike when you are least able to respond.

Many of us have read the post about Tom's experiment in the pool. I'm sure some still won't, or can't, buy it. Recently I have been doing a lot more fresh water fishing. The lake is very clear and I can literally see fish take live baits (and streamers). I'm amazed/ashamed/appalled at my inability to feel what I can see happen. It has made me rethink the whole notion of sensitivity with regards to slack line fishing techniques (which we do a lot of in my waters).

Russ in Hollywood, FL.

It's very disconcerting, isn't it?

............

I would not agree that fish in the boat is the best measure, unless you are fishing for a living. Since I think most of us here fish for enjoyment, the true measure is fun per day of fishing. The number of fish caught is an important part of it, but unless you fish for extremely dumb fish in waters choked with dumb fish, you spend much more time fishing than catching. So "fun" can mean many things, for instance, a slightly heavier more carefully made rod with a beautiful butt wrap, may be more enjoyable to fish, because part of the time you think about the effort and interest that went into the process of making the rod. Or, a rod may have certain associations from past trips, that makes it more enjoyable because of memories triggered by fishing it. And let's be honest, if it were just about the "tool" aspect of the rod, Wallmart could supply a perfectly adequate "tool" for $29.99 and save everyone here a ton of trouble.

Sensitivity? What's that? Maybe some interplay between line, fly rod, water and fish that is very hard to define, yet anyone can tell when they like fishing a certain rod. One of my favorite rods is 0.2 oz heavier than the other rod I use in the same streams. Yet I like it better and feel I catch more fish with it. So weight alone does not make the rod, but it is a component of all day enjoyment. Just not the only component. And consider, the most sensitive way to fish is with your hand on the line stripping the retrieve. The rod has virtually nothing to do with sensitivity in this situation, or maybe any situation if Tom's pool experiments are to be believed!

Anyway, I've never done a weave. But I wouldn't think twice about fishing a rod I made with an interesting weave pattern. That would be cool as heck, and that coolness would out weigh any concerns I had about the extra gram of thread and epoxy finish. So Lorenzo, enjoy your MHx with the extra wraps. Part of your fun is knowing you mastered a new skill and learned something. Bet you'll catch just as many fish and enjoy it more.

Drew,
All points well taken.
But I will say that in the many thousands of hours that I have spent in my boat fishing, that except for the first 10 seconds that I pick up a rod, I never look at it or even think about it.

As far as I am concerned, a great rod is just an extension of my wrist to be able to do the job at hand. Basically, the really great rod really feels like part of my arm and the actual weight and feel of a really great rod disappears because it melds into the end of my arm.

On the other hand, a rod that doesn't suit me, too heavy, wrong length, incorrect action for the way the fishing is going, then I am thinking about the rod all of the time and how much I dislike it.

Be safe
Roger

BEAUTY IS IN THE EYES OF THE BEHOLDER! What is beauty? Well, that means something special and different to each one of us. I am sure we can apply the same idea to an angler and his fishing tool.

One of the many things that I like about designing/crafting a new rod with a customer/friend is learning what they want/like and why. Sometimes their ideas are in line with mine and other times they are far different. But that is okay. My job is to produce exactly what they want. This is why the meetings with my customers are so important! I need the angler's input in order to be successful at the task. Take the people out of rod building and I would be bored something awful sitting alone wrapping rods.

Capt Neil Faulkner

" Sometimes their ideas are in line with mine and other times they are far different. But that is okay. My job is to produce exactly what they want. This is why the meetings with my customers are so important! I need the angler's input in order to be successful at the task. Take the people out of rod building and I would be bored something awful sitting alone wrapping rods"

Very well said Capt Neil!

Capt and Ken,
Many years ago I took a Quality course at work designed by a fellow named "Crosby"

[en.wikipedia.org]

and:

[www.axzopress.com]


One definition of quality that was defined by Mr. Crosby was as follows.

Quality is meeting 100% a list of predesignated specifications for a product.

So, if you list specification a-f, and your product meets - exactly - those specifications a-f; you have received an excellent product. If even one of those specifications has not been met, then you have a non quality product.

So, your suggestions about meeting with the customer and have mutual agreement on the specifications - in every detail - is the first thing to define a quality product. Then, if you as the builder meet that list of specifications, you in fact, have delivered a high quality product.

But, if you as the builder, miss even one of those specifications agreed on before the build, then you have delivered less than a quality product.

Be safe
Roger

Umpteen more fish are lost because of: Poor or weakened line, Poor knots, Dull hooks and Improper hook set than ANY of the nano diferrences in weight and placement of weight on a well built custom rod. A plain jane light, sensitve rod , with black thread, is a piece of cake to build AND wonderful to fish. A custom rod, with 'eye candy' well placed on it, with some muti-color threads and inlays, is a unique, artistic challenge to create AND still wonderful to fish. I feel guilty building a plain, light, sensitive rod for someone!

Years ago a person came to me to build him a custom rod. Besides wanting a well designed/crafted rod he asked for a very plain wrap schedule, all black. When I said fine he was surprised. It turned out that he came to me because another custom rod builder would not do the plain wraps unless he could install trim bands or something else to make it look custom. I did not ask the name of the builder but the man mentioned the builder's name on his own. Turned out it was a good friend of mine. I work very hard not to interfere with another builders customers.

Folks we are in a "service business". Our job is to serve the customers. Otherwise just build rods, place them in a rack and hope to sell them.

Capt Neil Faulkner

Hi Gents,
The last few posts are on the money. If a customer comes to you with and set of needs for a rod and you fill those needs as required there's a good chance he'll be back.
If you don't agree with or like his needs and you do something your own way do you think he'll be back?
Sitting down with the customer to find out want he wants and his preferences are probably the most important aspect of making a rod for someone.
A lot of the time they not sure what they want and that's where experience comes in handy where you can recommend components etc and point out the pros and cons of each. If you do that to his satisfaction then he'll probably be back as well.
Haven't seen a rod yet with a lot of fancy trim that out fishes a plain build, provided everything else is equal. If the customer wants fancy stuff then give to him and charge accordingly, if he wants it simple then give it to him and charge accordingly.

ESFNEM Col
Port Kembla, NSW
Australia