Hi all.

I'm hoping you can help me with some selections for the rod I'm building. This is my first rod and certainly learning a lot in the process. I fish for pelagics such as longtail tuna and spanish mackerel from a kayak and the rod is for that purpose. So it will be used for trolling, drifting plastics, and possibly some casting of metal slugs. The blank is a beautiful St. Croix 3SW70MHF and I'm teaming it with a Daiwa Sealine X 30SHV overhead (7ft long 1 piece 10-20lb rating) running 20lb braid. The reel will sit around 13 to 14 inches from the butt to allow a two handed cast and to keep the reel higher from the water when in the kayak. I'm in the process of selecting guides, grips and a reel seat. I have had great assistance so far from a friend who got the gear for me through Mud Hole and so far that's the only place I've been looking for parts.

Guides;
I have no idea what size guides to go for but believe I should look at slightly larger guides towards the tip, say size 10 to allow easier knot travel. The tip on this blank is reasonably flexible so considering single foot in that region. Would appreciate some input here.

Grips;
For this blank I thought cork would be pretty classy but not definite on that. Looking at a 12inch rear grip and a 6 to 8 inch fore grip.

Reel Seat;
As the diameter of the butt is only a bit over half an inch I didn't want to go for a big reel seat. The reel isn't big either so a 16 should do the job. Possibly a standard spinning seat. Not sure if a trigger grip would help at all on this rod. As I say if I attempt to cast distance it'll be a two handed cast.

Thanks in advance for the input and looking forward to the process.

Brad

EDIT; Just thought I'd add I'm in Brisbane Australia.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/18/2012 06:59PM by Brad Taylor.

That's a REALLY big/heavy reel for that blank ... but OK.

I wouldn't put anything larger than a 7mm running guide. That will easily pass a knot tying braid to leader. I would use single foot guides, I have put them on considerably heavier rods without incurring problems.

Those grips are much longer than any of my kayak customers want. In fact, they want just the opposite - a short butt grip to keep it off their clothing and no front grip.

Reel seats should be fitted to the hand. I would use a casting seat.

Hi Mate,

Even 6mm running guides will pass that knot without a problem.

I also fish from a yak and preffer shorter grips especially when trolling as i mount the rods in scottys level with my knees so i can see any action the shorter grips keep the rods away from my legs. i also built a rocket launcher behind my seat which keeps the reels away from the water. I run front grips but they are only 2 inches at most long.

I'd go with K guides which I get from mudhole as I can't find anyone in Aust. that even comes close on price.

Good luck on your first build if you take your time and research every part of the build you should come up with a great rod. I'm a noob aswell only built two rods so far but got an order for 2 rods today based on what I've done so far so I'm pretty stoked with this hobby.

Cheers

Mark
Old Bar NSW

Hi Guys, thanks for the replies.

Jim, the reel is probably about as small as I can go for line capacity required and at around 450grams (from memory) it's pretty good weight wise. I had an Abu 7000 which weighed a LOT more than that and was bigger if anything. My targets being tuna, spaniards, even cobia and wahoo I don't think I can go much smaller. Last year I landed a 17kg longtail after a fight that lasted over an hour. I do often hook unstoppable things as well. To clarify I paddle a Stealth fishing ski and usually head offshore, as much as 4 to 5km out and often there are surf launches and landings involved. When these fish hit they hit hard so I only use the recessed rod holders. Mark, I did actually try some recessed Scotty holders but they weren't stiff enough for my liking. So the rods do sit fairly low to the water. High quality expensive reels aren't worth it as the tighter the tolerances the more likely they are to fail with what I put them through. I have used an Abu 5600C4 for several years and it's been brilliant for the mackerel but it's not beefy enough for the tuna, cobia etc. I've also gone for a longer front grip as when you are fighting a fish for well over half an hour it's a good place to hold the rod. The lack of a level wind on the reel also makes this beneficial. Again happy for input.

Now, time to show my total lack of knowledge. For a guide layout, would 7(tip), 7, 7, 7, 8, 8, 8, 10, 10, 12 sound about right? Be kind, I'm new here. :D

Hi Brad,
Good to see another Aussie here, For your guides that sounds ok but you can get away without the two 8's and 10's, try the 6's and see if your knots will pass easy enough. I've got a few 20lb braid rods and the 6's handle the knots easily, will depend on the leader size you are using. Also consider a spiral wrap as you'll get away with one less guide and the rod will be more stable under load. Plenty of info here on spiral wraps, just use the search function and list all dates. An O'Quinn spiral casts a little better than a 0, 60, 120 and 180 spiral but still usually has three transition guides. It's not that difficult to set up and the benefits out weigh the look you get with a spiral. Your guide train can probably be 12 or 10, 8, then 6's or 7's out to the tip. For the grips, reel seat etc go with what suits you best and don't worry what anybody else thinks, it's yours not theirs. Personally I set most of my foregrips up with long fat ones because that's what suits me best.
If it's your first rod might be a good idea to do some practice on an old blank or similar to become familar with what you need to do. If you don't have it I strongly suggest you get a copy of Tom Kirkman's "Rod Building Guide" as it has excellent basics including guide set up, grip and seat installation etc. Well worth the money.

ESFNEM Col
Port Kembla, NSW
Australia

Brad -

Based on the additional information you supplied ... I would go with a 12mm and all 7mm (no other sizes), but all double footed. Titanium frames would be a good choice ... light, strong and corrosion proof. You won't add that much additional weight by moving to DF guides and it will add durability, which sounds like the right thing to do with your application.

Jim -



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/19/2012 06:46AM by Jim Gamble.

Hi Col and thanks. For the pelagics I typically use 40lb fluoro leader and join it to a bimini on the braid using a slim beauty. It does rattle a bit through the guides on the way out as I use a long leader for a bit of shock absorption, also can catch a bit on the tip on the way back in sometimes. I've considered using a FG knot but not tried it yet. I did a search on the O'Quinn spiral and it sounds quite interesting, not sure I should attempt it on my first build though. As suggested I am doing a practice rod first but not really counting that as a real rod.

Jim, thanks again, appreciate it. Will double foots affect the action of the blank, especially at the tip? (looking at my 6kg Gary Howard spin stick it's got double foots so should be fine) And you are right about durability. My kayak has a full rod chute inside and that's where I store the rods for transiting the surf zone, so they do get bounced around a bit. I have made up cloth sleeves which I put over the rods before I load them in the yak and this stops them getting tangled together and gives a bit of protection from rubbing on the bottom of the rod chute. Not sure how a spiral wrap would go laying on the bottom of the yak? May not make much difference.

Brad

Hi Brad,
Try a double uni knot, fairly small and very good strength, works well for me. You'll hardly notice the difference between single and double footers. I use double footers on all my 20lb braid rods and they're good. Problem with the single footers in a yak is they could be easily bent or broken, while double footers are more durable. Titanium frames are great but they're easier to bend than stainless. If you can look after them then they are the way to go.

ESFNEM Col
Port Kembla, NSW
Australia

I agree on the 12 7--- double foot guide configuration.
I would also go with a size 18 trigger reel seat. The larger reel seat and trigger will really help to stabilize the rod when bringing in the fish. The weight of the reel seat is not as important as the necessary stability for the rod.

The reason that I point out the 18 reel trigger reel seat, is that a built a similar action rod, with a straight size 17 non trigger reel seat. Used it once, then cut the butt grip off so that I could cut off the reel seat and replace it with the size 18 trigger seat. Much much better rod in use with the large trigger style reel seat.

Good luck and be safe
Roger

Brad, how much line do you think you will get on that reel? I was thinking the reel held close to 300 yards of 20# mono.

Russ in Hollywood, FL.

Thanks again guys.

As this is my first rod build it's all a bit of an experiment. I THINK it is what I want but will know that only after I've used it. Even the reel is my best guess at this point. I did seriously consider the 20 sized Sealine reel but ended up with the 30 as it's just a bit wider and not much heavier. A friend of mine has one fully spooled already and it looked good on the blank and it seems very castable. The high speed of these reels also made them attractive. Russell, about 400yd of 20lb Power Pro is my estimate. I don't consider all 400yd usable as when the spool gets significantly emptied it changes the drag setting. So I consider around 250m usable. It's not uncommon at all to lose 150m on the first run of the fish. Again I will see how it goes and if I need to change reels I will. I'm pretty sure the blank is going to work well and the rest is not definite. Hopefully I get the rod build correct first.

Sounds like there is consensus on the guide selection, thanks. Roger, why size 18 and not a 16? When you say it'll help to "stabilize" the rod, do you mean make the butt stiffer? The reel foot is not big at all and will comfortably fit in a 16, don't know how it would go on an 18.

Cheers, Brad

Question re' O'Quinn spiral wrap method. I looked up Rodmaker and Volume 6 #5 which apparently explained the details is sold out. I've looked on youtube and nothing on there. Does anyone have an article or link that would help me to explore the idea? I can't get my head around how the line is supposed to be "straight" when it's going from the top of the rod to the bottom.

Thanks, Brad

Okay, here are my thoughts.

The blank you have is best fished around 15# class. The reel you have will easily fish 30# class. Spanish can be taken on 15#. Your better Cobia, Kingfish, Wahoo, and Tuna are another matter. I would want the durability and shock absorbing qualities of a composite rod for kayak fishing and trolling duty.

Given that no man has enough rods and reels mate, I'd get a smaller reel for that blank, like a penn mag 525/slosh 20/avet sx (I'd use a spinning reel and go with single foot guides). Then I'd get a bit stronger composite rod for that reel, like a lamiglass tri-flex.

FWIW I have a 15-30# rated tri-flex and it could fish 40# if needed. I wouldn't hesitate to give it all I had to stop a fish as I honestly don't think I could break it. I also have a 3SW70HF which is rated 15-30# too. I'd say it could fish 30# if you had some finesse in your game. I "do" think I could break it if I wasn't careful how I fished it. I will use a tyrnos 10 (2 speed) on the lamiglass with 50# braid and 20 to 30# mono topshot depending on needs. I will use a stradic 8000 with 30# braid (hoping for close to 350 yards) on the St. Croix. I haven't fished the St. Croix yet but the lamiglass has caught a big bonita (20#?) and a decent sailfish (60#?) on its first outing. It instilled confidence while still being fun.

One of the tricks for setting up the O'Quinn sprial is to use something like the tip section of a fly rod blank and slide it thru the guides to obtain a straight line path. Not sure I'd bother cept for a surf casting outfit.

Lets see what Col and the other mates from your area have to say. Maybe that blank is enough. I wouldn't say it is for cobia and wahoo in my area though. And I wouldn't want to troll with braid and a higher end 100% graphite blank for fish that deliver savage high speed hits like a wahoo can.

Russ in Hollywood, FL.

Russ, some very interesting comments there. I'll admit I don't know a lot about the different materials for rod blanks and their particular characteristics so the chosen St. Croix was based on a few things.

Firstly because I fish from a kayak I can't lock the drag up as I'd get capsized every time a big fish hits (I've been close but survived but I've seen it happen and it's not good, very scary) so there's little point in fishing more than around 20lb. Second is my fishing style, I don't like cranking fish to the surface with the heaviest possible gear, I do enjoy finessing a fish to submission rather than skull dragging them in (The 17kg/40lb tuna was caught on a 6kg rod but it did take over an hour). Next, I thought the particular blank I've chosen is a mid modulus graphite and hence not too brittle or susceptible to high sticking? (I hear what you say about the savage strike on a more brittle graphite rod). I do like the physical dimensions of it also as it's a relatively small butt diameter. I also like rods with a relatively stiff butt and a flexible tip for casting and to see what my lure is doing when trolling. As to the line class, I fish 20lb with braid because I can given it's a much smaller diameter etc. I also have a 30lb reel but it doesn't get used much. And lastly, because of the reputation of the St. Croix blanks.

So your suggestion of the Lamiglass blank is interesting. Being a composite glass/graphite I assume take it it will handle the hits better? I had a quick look on Mud Hole and they appear to be bigger blanks, not sure about its loading characteristics?

Regarding the reel the one I bought is the slosh 30 and I probably should have gone for the 20 but as I said, time will tell.

I suppose what I'm trying to achieve is the lightest outfit that will subdue a fish within a reasonable time, so it's all about balance.

Brad.

Hi Brad,
An O'Quinn spiral is not that difficult to set up. Start with gluing your tip on and make sure it's straight. Position your first five or so guides at about five inches apart. Then set up your last three transition guides. I prefer to put the reel on the rod and fully loaded with line. Run the line through the first three and get the line in the centre of the spool and position the first three so that the line is going through the centre of the ring. Continue the line out to the tip then check how it intersects the first 180 guide and you may have to move it a bit to get it in the right spot. It's time for a static test so tie some 30lb braid to the tip and a hook at the other end. Get some water in the bucket, enough to give you a good loaded bend. Get the line through all the guides and tie another hook to it. hook it to the bucket handle also and wind it up until it is just tight. Now look at how the line is following the blank curve and the angle the line makes with each guide, the angles should be the same but might be a bit different for the transition guides. Add or remove guides and reposition as necessary until you get it to follow the blank curve and the angles are very similar. Also check them again at a distance and with the tip over the bucket so you get a 90 degree bend, NO more than 90 or you will risk breaking the tip. You might need some small adjustments, then your good to go, might sound like a lot of mucking around but it doesn't take too long and is well worth it. It's easier to do all this if you've got someone holding the rod for you, but you can do it by yourself. One other thing is to consider how you hold the rod in a fight on a good fish. I like to spiral the guides to the side the reel handle is on so it doesn't interfer with the hand holding the rod. The first guide will only be at about 5 - 10 degrees off vertical and you can probably do it either way without interfering with the hand holding the rod. Some guys like to spiral it the other way as they say it's easier to spead the line on the spool and without a level wind you will need to take that into consideration. If you change reels it will alter the transition guides slighlty depending on the difference in spool height so think about the reel you are going to use. If your worried about weight and balance you might be better going with a smaller reel, just check to see if the line capacity is sufficient. Rodbuilding is mainly common sense and use the KISS method. Good luck with the build on this one and I hope you hook something that takes you on a good, but safe trip and you land it. Fishing from a yak in the open ocean has it's dangers as you are probably aware. NO FISH is worth loosing your life or getting injured over, good luck and take care.

ESFNEM Col
Port Kembla, NSW
Australia

I'm learning a lot, thanks everyone and keep it coming. :)

Now, back to my original question. I'm now okay on the size of guides but would like some suggestions as to what particular guides to use. I've looked on Mud Hole for Fuji selections (including K guides) and obviously don't know enough as yet. K guides and titanium double foot casting guides sound good but wasn't sure which ones to go for.

Appreciate your input.

Brad.

Hi Brad,
Go to the control centre at the top of the page and unhide your email. Will give you some guides to look at but can't mention them on the forum as they aren't a sponsor.

ESFNEM Col
Port Kembla, NSW
Australia

Hello Brad.

Anytime I'm around salt I use Stainless Steel or Titanium for the corrosion problem.

Bob,

New Bern, NC.

Col Chaseling Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Hi Brad,
> Go to the control centre at the top of the page
> and unhide your email. Will give you some guides
> to look at but can't mention them on the forum as
> they aren't a sponsor.


Done.

Thanks Bob, think I'll go with titaniums.

Brad, my bad.....I didn't think about your kayak tipping over......figured you'd get towed around is all. If 20# test, meaning 5 to maybe 7 pounds of drag is all you can fish, than there is no point in looking at the more powerful tri-flex blank. Sure you could get a less powerful one but it isn't going to land a given size fish any quicker, just be more durable at the cost of added weight and a reduction in sensitivity.

You mention "reasonable time". Clearly you don't have the big barracuda we do. No way I could fight a 40# tuna for an hour as he would be eaten before that. Even if I could, chances are he would be too tried to avoid being eaten after being released. So for me it wouldn't be responsible to target those fish on that tackle. Other fish, like sailfish fight a faster battle so I can target them on lighter gear. On top of all that, eating quality is reduced by such long battles.

Titanium guides are the most corrosion resistant. They also cost the most and aren't as rugged. Some have reported that if they aren't bent a few times they break. Brand seems to matter in this regard. Normal Fuji guides are 304 stainless. Amtak and Alps offer 316 stainless guides. 316 stainless is a lot more corrosion resistant than type 304. I use them as the titanium are too much money for me and I had some bad luck with a shipment being destroyed in the mail. I like the virtus lites in the black frame....but smallest guide size is an 8 IIRC.

Still think you deserve a nice little lever drag reel for what you are doing. It allows you to set at strike and troll without worry and then advance to full knowing just what your drag will be. Mush smoother/better drag too if you haven't used on.

Russ in Hollywood, FL.