I think I got this…but please correct me if I’m wrong or I missed something.

A rods sensitivity (how much vibration is passed from the line through the rod and is felt in hand) has to do with the stiffness of the rod.
It also is effected by the materials used in the handle, and arbors to reel seat surface contact. OK for the most part I think I got that….

In the case of feeling the vibration (sensitivity) while holding the rod at the reel seat:
The vibrations passed through the rod are transferred through the arbors and through the reel seat…to your hand.
With that; then the “sensitivity” is proportional to the arbor and reel seat interior surface contact. So the more surface contact you have between the two parts will allow the rod to have a better “feel” ….??

I read another thread that was questioning the use of tape arbors, and it made me take a closer look at my own builds. Some comment(s) in the mentioned thread referred to using three tape arbors and that was it.
I use 1/2 inch tape for arbors and space them about a 1/2 inch apart through the length of the reel seat, and each gap is filled with epoxy. If the spacing doesn’t allow the arbors total length to come out equal to the length of the reel seat I’ll fudge the spacing in the center arbors to get the same distance from the end arbors to the ends of the reel seat. Usually leaving about a 1/16 to 1/8 inch over hang for the ends of the reel seat. I let handle material and mating of the reel seat to the handles dictate that overhang.
The result of this method has been that I have yet to have a reel seat slip and have all the “sensitivity” I could ask for.

I have used different blanks and different reel seats (all things being about the same as far as comparing rods of similar over all types) and have been successful in making rods that are really sensitive in the reel seat.

If my thinking, and methods, hold true; then the same should hold true with respects to using composite handles. Right?

So am I looking at this right?

Tight lines
Paully

In general, the higher the stiffness to weight ratio, the more sensitive and more responsive the rod will be. So, for two rods of the same power or stiffness, the lighter of the two will be more sensitive.

If you are using tape arbors and filled the voids with epoxy, you're adding weight, not strength. You can shave some noticeably weight from the rod by moving to rigid foam type arbors and applying epoxy only between the arbors and seat interior.

..................

If the rod were connected directly to the fish then the tape arbor/composite materials concerns would be paramount. However, the first critical sensations when a fish bites usually occur when the fish is twenty or more feet away. The line must transmit these sensations , and if the line is monofilament the sensations are dulled by the fact that monofilament stretches 10% or more. GSP stretches in the 1% range, thus transmits at least ten times more sensitive than mono. Those people who worry about sensitivity a rod transmits should use a line which stretches as little as possible and reduce the mass of the rod as much as possible before they worry about the sensitivity of tape arbors and composite reel seats.

Good point, Phil, although I certainly acknowledge that there are times when monofilament is preferred.

Rod sensitivity can be an important component of overall sensitivity to a fish's actions, But I have seen it said that often line watching serves as the best way to sense/ see a fishs bite.

If you want to get real depressed try fishing in very clear water where you watch fish mouth your offerings. It can quickly humble you as to any notions you have regarding sensitivity. Line watching is vastly superior.

In particular I might argue the point about "more surface contact area". There plenty of other areas where it is generally felt that reducing the contact area to a "point" is best.

Imagine using a hammer to strike hardened steel. Big difference in what you hand feels if the hammer is made from one solid piece of steel compared to one with handle made from wrapping masking tape arbors around it and gluing them to cork rings.

Russ in Hollywood, FL.

If you search earlier posts you may find where I recounted an experiment a friend and I made some years ago where we blindfolded one of us and had him retrieve several lures though a large swimming pool while the other got in the pool and slapped and hit the lure. Only if you actually stopped the lure, could you feel. Otherwise, hit it as hard you might underwater, and the blindfolded angler never felt anything.

..............

Paul,
I think that the work sensitivity is a word that just really does not work very well with fishing rods.

I think that the best thing to do with respect to rods is to buy and use high quality blanks that are as light as possible and to build the rod using as light components as possible.

Then, generally speaking you will be well satisfied with the rod that you have built.

Good luck
Roger

The real "sensitive one" is the angler in the back of the boat who hears, for the third time, the Professional Angler in front yell "Hey Bud You Just Missed Another One"!

Bill
X10

Roger

p.s.
An awful lot of sensing the fish as they bite is to pay attention to your rod tip, your line slace etc. 100% of the time.
On some bodies of water fishing certain species of fish - a person might only have a few fish every get close enough to the hook to be considered a bite.

If the bite has been slow, the less experienced angler might be laying back and not paying a lot of attention to the details of the rod, reel, and line that make a bite. As a result on those slow days that happen to everyone, when the bite comes - it is not noticed and then the angler says that they are not biting.

The other thing that I have found is that so many people find a given rod a lot more sensitive if they fish with high vis line.

Now, certainly the rod and reel have not changed when the line is changed on the reel.

But, the angler is catching a lot more fish with the high vis line and tells everyone that his rod is now a lot more sensitive.

But, I suspect that what the angler is finding is that he is now paying more attention to his line. He is paying attention to the little twitches that are caused by a fish bothering the lure that he does not see with clear line.

So, when you hear the term that high vis line made a persons rod more sensitive - you will know what is really going on.

REW

I have fished through the ice using a hand-lined jig&grub and watched the bite "live" on a flasher fish finder. When the "fish blip" and the "jig blip" became one I would set the hook and be rewarded with a hook-up a high percentage of the time, although I felt nothing through the line. [No, my fingers weren't numb.] Eliminating the rod and hand-lining maximized the sense of touch, and the vertical jig line eliminated slack, further enhancing the sense of touch. Still, the flasher told me I would have completely missed well over 50% of all hits if I relied upon my sensitivity of touch. I don't pay much attention to the sensitivity of a rod.

Tom Kirkman Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> In general, the higher the stiffness to weight
> ratio, the more sensitive and more responsive the
> rod will be. So, for two rods of the same power or
> stiffness, the lighter of the two will be more
> sensitive.
>
> If you are using tape arbors and filled the voids
> with epoxy, you're adding weight, not strength.
> You can shave some noticeably weight from the rod
> by moving to rigid foam type arbors and applying
> epoxy only between the arbors and seat interior.
>
> ..................

OK, I understand the stiffness to weight ratio and the effects on rod sensitivity.

I understand that filling the voids isn’t adding strength, was thinking it would be creating a “one piece” arbor. By filling the voids and using the arbor method I eluded to, I was getting more contact between the blank and the reel seat. With that allowing all the vibration felt by the rod to transmit through to hand. Instead of having one or two points of contact was bonding the entire reel seat to the blank creating a larger transmission “speaker”…for lack of a better term. Basically making the real seat and the blank one solid piece.

I actually just saw, in a catalog, this morning “full length” foam arbors. I’m I not applying that same concept…?
I do hear what you are saying about the difference in the foam and the tape, and will look at the foam with a bit more intent. But again is my concept not correct?
As far as the added weight by doing what I have been…my thinking is it would be negligible and truly unnoticeable in hand. You’re talking about fractions of fractions of ounces. Yes that would come to play more so in fly rods or light duty rods, but not so much of an issue with…say…med. Spin and casting rods or larger rods.


I do know there are vast differences in the effects of fishing line(s) with regards to what or how much vibrations are transmitted to the rod from hook/lure.
I know that watching the line is far more a superior method of indication of bites, and that slack lines and not paying attention to every cast and retrieve will cost you. Learned that one through fly fishing without indicators…(hint hint wink wink)

My question was more to “Is applying the most contact between the reel seat and the blank the best method to “feel” the most vibration from the blank to the reel seat to hand?”
So far with most of the rods I’ve built, I can tell the difference, or feel the difference, in different textures of different types of paper.
I’m taking different types of paper (with different textures) and putting them on the table and rubbing the tip of the rods on them and feeling the texture differences in the reel seat.
I did get a little less feel out of a couple rods, a 50 pound stand-up and a couple heaver type 13 foot surf rods. But even with those rods I could feel the difference in slightly rubbing the table top surface and ply wood surfaces. Which I didn’t think was too bad for those rods.

So, can I get more out of my set-ups by using a different arbor or reel seat install method. I am very pleased with what I done thus far, but if I can make improvements I will.

My other question:
Whatever method is best for installing reel seats, would that also be the best method for install in Tennessee style tube handles?

Thank you for all the guidance you folks have given thus far.

Tight lines
Paully

You don't need that much contact area - there is more than enough strength on that type with just a couple of 1-inch arbors. As far as more contact area creating better sensitivity, you're also adding more weight which serves to nullify what you just did by creating more contact area (although more contact area does not necessarily equate to better sensitivity).

The human sense of feel is not going to be able to detect minor differences in the type of sensitivity you're talking out. Some years ago I did repair work at a shop where one of the owners was fond of putting rods in customers' hands and the tip against his Adam's Apple. As he spoke he'd ask them if they could feel the vibrations of his voice through the rod. They'd light up and smile and think they were holding a most sensitive piece of material. One day I got tired of watching this scenario and grabbed the rod away from a guy and replaced it with a wooden broom handle, whereupon I then repeated the same "test." He said he thought the vibrations were even stronger coming through the broom handle and asked if we could build him a rod out of Hickory. No kidding.

.............

Should have put a handle and guides on the broom handle LOL

Bill - willierods.com

Remove post

Mike Bradfrod
R.M.B. Fishing Rods
Nampa, Idaho



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/04/2012 07:22PM by Mike Bradford.

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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/04/2012 06:50PM by Bill Stevens.

Thanks Tom. Stiffness(power) being equal, the lighter rod should be more "sensitive". This will help.

Tom mentions an interesting experiment. Nobody stepped up and said much. However I'm willing to bet a lot don't buy it and are sure they could feel somewhat their lure.

Phil tells a story that is even more dramitic. He totally removed the rod from the equation yet results weren't much better. Again I'd imagine some thinking Phil's fingers must be defective.

Now on the other hand we all have felt the differences between rods with regards to ability to detect a bite. It is real and it makes a huge difference in how many fish go in the boat. It does depend somewhat on how you are fishing and what you are catching. Define it how you will but it can't be denied and it is worth having.

FWIW tom has mentioned ergonomic studies that have determined optimum handle/grip sizes. WRT sensitivity my best info has come from research on walking canes for the blind and work on (tapered) cantilever beams.

Russ in Hollywood, FL.

I'd bet money on that experiment. I participated, and when my buddy said he didn't feel anything I thought he was just a "lousy" fisherman. Then I tried it. I didn't feel anything either.

..............

X10 tom

Certainly a light and high quality rod makes catching fish a lot of fun. Fishing with a light rod, also lets a fisherman fish for a very long time without getting tired.

I think that a lot of fish are missed due to inattention or fatigue.

I also think that the really good fisherman depends on a lot more cues when fishing than just "feeling" the bite.

I also think that generally speaking fish that are "felt" are already hooked on the hook.

Take care
Roger