I'm sure this has been hashed and rehashed but, what guide sizes do you recommend for a 9' 5wt fly rod. I intend to use Recoil stripper(s) and Recoil single foot runners. Thanks.

John Gaylord
Keewaydin Custom Rods
Dublin, OH; Naples, FL
jgbuckeye@gmail.com

WhenI built my TFO TiCr I followed the manufacturers suggestion. For the 9' 5wt 4 piece they reccomended a 16-12 for stripping guide then 4-2-2-1-1-1-1/0-1/0. Guide spacing from the tip is 5 1/8 - 10 7/8 - 17 1/8 - 24 - 31 1/2 - 39 5/8 - 48 1/4 - 57 1/2 - 67 3/8 - 77 5/8. Hope that helps.

Not to step on Ryan's toes but you don't need all those extra sizes. They do nothing for you other than add unnecessary weight and create a stair-step line path. At the very most you need 3 sizes, a stripper, a transition guide, then running guides all of the same size.

The idea that using a grand mix of sizes somehow creates a more gradual line transition or something has zero merit. It does nothing of the sort and in fact tends to accomplish exactly the opposite.

I don't know how REC sizes their running guides. I would use a high frame 12 (16 is fine too) and then a 10 or 8 in the same style then 7 or 8 running guides all of the size (whatever is the smallest that will easily pass your line and any connections).

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Tom Kirkman Wrote:
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> Not to step on Ryan's toes but you don't need all
> those extra sizes. They do nothing for you other
> than add unnecessary weight and create a
> stair-step line path. At the very most you need 3
> sizes, a stripper, a transition guide, then
> running guides all of the same size.
>
> The idea that using a grand mix of sizes somehow
> creates a more gradual line transition or
> something has zero merit. It does nothing of the
> sort and in fact tends to accomplish exactly the
> opposite.
>
> I don't know how REC sizes their running guides. I
> would use a high frame 12 (16 is fine too) and
> then a 10 or 8 in the same style then 7 or 8
> running guides all of the size (whatever is the
> smallest that will easily pass your line and any
> connections).
>
> ...............


Tom, out of curiosity, why is a spinning rod generally built with a transitional guide path from large to small but a fly rod would not be. Albeit on a spinning rod the 1/0 at the end would be dropped in favor of 1's, but the principle still stands to funnel the line down to the tip top. Is this not the same concept with a fly rod? Also, can you explain how funneling the line down to the tip top does not create a more gradual line transition? It seems in your guide layout it is accomplishing the same thing with less sizes. You start with two larger strippers, then a transition guide or guides, then a single size to the top. The TFO layout is doing the same, it just uses 3 sizes to the top creating a gradual transition down the blank. Besides weight, what is the negative effect of this as opposed to one single size. You have me curios, as I have not finished the top two sections of this rod and only have the size 12 and 10 stripper and size 4 transition guide actually on the rod.

The line does not come off a fly reel or casting reel like it does off a spinning reel. Fly line is already stripped off the reel and does not need to be funneled down. You probably could get by with out a stripping guide on a fly rod and just start with running guides without too much difference in casting distance. I'll leave that to somebody else to try.
On the spinning rods I have built using NGC I have never needed more than 2 guides between the reel and the choke guide and the choker is the same size as the runnning guide.

Everything Bruce said is right on the money. A fly line is already reduced and traveling in a straight line.

Just be thankful that manufacturers don't offer guide sizes in 1mm increments - some of these guys would have 10 different sizes on their rod.

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But what is the negative effect when using a tapering set of guides as opposed to strippers straight to a single size finished on out?

A little bit more weight and a less than straight line path.

We've published information on this in the magazine previously but you can set them up on a table and look for yourself. Just set up a group with all those sizes. For easier viewing, push them close together. Now note the stair-step path. Now set one up as I outlined above and do the same. Note much smoother and straighter everything is.

There just isn't any reason to use all these different sizes. The line doesn't require it - it's already traveling in a straight path.

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Now possibly you could explain to me;
Why do the two worst casting fly rods I own have a similar guide set-up ??
One stripper and the remaining guides are all the same size.
Both are factory builds.
I additionally have two factory builds with progressive layouts that both cast well.
My eight customs are all progressive guide sizes and none are afflicted with poor performance.
I've experienced poor casting with other custom builds with minimum guide sizes.

Coincidence ???

Maybe the big name factory guys have the correct answer.

If those particular rods cast poorly, it has nothing to do with the guide set ups.

A line that will easily pass through a #6 guide will easily pass through a #6 guide. Period. It doesn't need to go through a #10, then two #8's and then #6's.

By the way, Eugene, I hate to call you out on this and no disrespect intended, but the rod you sent to the casting contest at the 2009 Expo brought up the bottom. It was the worst in the competition.Several people cast it and not a single one could even qualify with it while they easily qualified and even competed for top distance with other rods. Your concepts on guide theory don't pan out in practical application.

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I don't think you can tell any difference in the same rod rigged up with either concept. But this is all the more reason not to use all the different sizes. It doesn't do anything better so why bother with all the extra sizes? More weight and more money. Makes no sense.

I go from the stripping guide right on down to the running guides of all the same size and have had nothing but good results. The line doesn't use all the room in the guides anyway.

Eugene
If your having problems with a fly rod casting a particular line try a different weight line. Guide size and setup have very little to do with how a particular rod casts a particular line. The line you are casting is already out of the guides and in the air that weight of the line loads the rod on the back cast and is transferred out of the rod back to the line on the forward cast. Any flyrod will cast any weight fly line properly. Each weight fly line will be a different length on that particular rod. The weight designation given to a particular fly rod is a guess given to it by the manufacturer.

I have 2 4 wt rods from different manufacturers. One casts a 4 wt line the distances I fish beautifully it's my favorite rod. The other I have to get way more line out to get it to cast properly. If I put a 6 wt line on it loads and casts just like the other 4 wt at the distances I usually want to fish it.

I feel that was a completely appropriate question still in need of an answer.

In regards to the casting competition;
The rod was not to be entered into competition and was done so without my consent.
According to what I was told by the caster no one else cast that rod. Are you saying I was lied to ??
Was the rod cast with the reel it was designed for ??

No need for a respectable person to resort to cheap shots.

Eugene,

That's not true and you know it. You made it clear that it was to be entered into the contest. You specified the reel diameter it was intended to cast with, and a reel as close as possible to that description was used. Others did cast the rod. You also gave Steve a price which you said you would be willing to sell the rod for if anyone asked about buying it after seeing it cast. Steve did not and would not lie to you. You simply misinterpreted what he told you. He was the only one to cast it in the competition. However, several of us cast it after the competition was concluded. We could do no better with it than Steve had.

This was not intended as a cheap shot - we have many new and impressionable builders here who often have no way of knowing if the advice they're being given holds water. It might be a big help to them to know how a particular theoretical system actually works in practice. I've come up with plenty of ideas that in practice didn't work the way I thought they would, or should. And when that happens I have no problem telling folks it didn't work. A few years back I was playing with a double butt guide set-up. I believed it would provide greater casting distance on a spinning rod. It didn't. And I took a photo of it, put it on the photo page, and stated that it didn't gain me anything. I was mistaken in terms of what I thought it would accomplish.

As far as your question still in need of an answer - you didn't provide enough information to get that answer. As myself and others told you, however, if those particular rods don't cast to your liking, it's not likely to be because all the same size running guides were used. We don't know what size those were, we don't know if the line being used matches the rod power. There is a whole host of variables you didn't bother to divulge. It's hard to give an suitable answer when few specifics have been given. I could just as easily have said, "All my rods with the same size running guides cast great, but the two I have with a multitude of sizes cast poorly. Coincidence?"

The commercial rod operations use a multitude of sizes for two reasons. The first is for the same reason they paint their rods pretty colors - aesthetics intended to please the consumer. The second is based on the old idea that any tangle in the fly line will be knocked loose by a subsequent guide before reaching the smallest ones where it would otherwise hang up. In practice most fly fishermen long ago learned that the size of a tangle in a fly line will most often either knock loose or hang, at the stripping guide. Not somewhere halfway down the rod.

Don't get me wrong, I used to build rods (casting, spinning, fly) with a multitude of guide sizes. I think most did and most still do. But over the years as I gained more practical experience, I stopped doing that.

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