I can't explain to you what 50lbs represents other than to say that it's heavier than 40lbs and lighter than 60lbs. The only way for you to determine what 50lbs means to you, is to pick it up and get a feel for it.

This may work better for you - if you're not using the numbers to compare against another set of numbers, and simply wish to know what the units are telling you based on their own merits, do this:

1. Pick up the rod blank and shake it. Flex it by hand a few times, both shallow and deep. Tie a weight to it and lift, pull, etc. Remember what the blank felt like to you while performing these operations.

2. Now look at the Big Picture numbers on your chart. What you felt while performing step one, is what those numbers are telling you.

A number is only a number, unless and until you have something to relate it to. Perform the above enough times with enough blanks and you'll have something to relate them to. This is how you learned to use inches, pounds, degrees, etc., and it's how you're going to have to learn to use AA, ERN, CCF, etc.


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I do understand what Tom is saying as a frame of reference is required to make sense of any measurment. At the same time, as one who is building their first set of fly rod blanks, I understand Tim's frustration at getting a straight answer to a seemingly basic question.

If someone came to me with a few spinning/casting blanks it would be a trival matter for me to offer suggestions on line class and casting weight. It would require a little more time to explain the difference between a spin/jig action, and one for live bait, but it could be easily done.

It seems to be a very different matter when one hands a few fly rod blanks to someone and asks for advice. Answers like, "any fly rod will cast any weight line for a certain distance" are of little help even if they are technically true. For example, I handed across a 5 and a 6 weight. The 5 weight was built. The gentlemen flatly refused to sell me anything until I came back for casting lessons from his expert. Then the expert would advise and I would be allowed to buy a reel and line.

Fast forward to after casting lessons and expert feels 5 weight and asks what my intentions/feelings are. I say it is labeled as a 5 weight. I would call it a moderate to moderately fast action. I think it is true to line class, and I intend it as a strickly fresh water rod for panfish and whatever else bites. He tells me it is no pan fish/peacock/largemouth 5 weight, but a bonefish 5 weight, yet he suggests I trust the line rating of the blank and allows me to buy a WF5F line. He feels the 6 weight and I decline to tell him its rating saying it is a closeout blank, and maybe a prototype, so listed rating means nothing. He presses the issuse and when I say 6 weight and ask for a line suggestion I hear comments like, "it is a 6 weight for shark fishing in a gale force wind". God help me if he had felt the 9 weight. Even I think it feels like it is like a 3 power hot shot blank with a foot cut off the end.

Generally one could buy an assortment of lines and judge what is best. That hardly works for me when I don't know how to cast a fly rod. For now I need to get "in the ball park" so I can attempt to learn. I had thought ccs would provide some answers. Now I am wondering if I should bother?

Sorry for the rant. I just wanted to offer some real life experience to back up the frustration Tim may be feeling.

Russ in Hollywood, FL.

The CCS will provide those answers and more. Easily. But this isn't the crux of what Tim is asking.

If I asked Tim, or you, to explain to me what "50 lbs means" how would you answer that? You can certainly tell me that it's heavier than 40lbs and lighter than 60lbs, but how would you go about telling me exactly what 50lbs represents otherwise. The fact is, you can't do it. Because what 50lbs represents to you and what it represents to someone else is likely to be very different.



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Russ,

I found your latest response both interesting and informative. Also, it vividly highlighted the major problem associated with trying to introduce some "Common Cents" into the description of fishing rods.
In every case when a new concept is introduced, there is resistance from those in the "establishment" who have a vested interest in maintaining the status quo. The CCS is no different. It is viewed as posing a real threat to many of the so called "experts", and its "objective values" level the playing field for smaller rod manufacturers who would rather compete on the basis of performance rather than hype and overwhelming advertising budgets.

Specifically, I refer to the use of the term "Weight" to describe the power of a fly fishing rod. As long as anglers continue to use this virtually meaningless term which has no precise definition, there is little hope of transmitting objective information about fly rods, since the only way one can determine the "Weight" of a fly rod is by reading the number the designer inscribed on that rod. That number is correct, by definition. However, that does not address its usefulness.

You say, 1. "Generally one could buy an assortment of lines and judge what is best. That hardly works for me when I don't know how to cast a fly rod. For now I need to get "in the ball park" so I can attempt to learn. I had thought ccs would provide some answers. Now I am wondering if I should bother?"
2. "Answers like, "any fly rod will cast any weight line for a certain distance" are of little help even if they are technically true."

Sorry, but I beg to differ. That statement is a known fact and recognized as true by every competent fly angler. That is the reason why the rod and line one first uses is not the important issue. When fly casting, the angler quickly learns to subconsciously adjust his casting stroke to match the frequency demands of his equipment. One must first master the essentials of fly casting. Now, one can learn all this alone or learn it faster by employing a "casting expert" who will prevent you from developing bad habits. First, you must learn how to make a basic cast using any equipment you have available. (Of course, it will be easier if one starts with a balanced outfit.) After you know how to cast, you can intelligently choose the equipment you wish to use based on where you are fishing, the size of the fish you expect to catch, the distance you expect to have to cast, weather conditions, the size of your fly, etc., etc. If you just want a serviceable rod for general trout fishing, the following specifications will get you in the right "ball park". ERN=5.5, ELN=5.5, AA=65 degrees, CCF=84 cpm, Length=9 ft., Rod=Graphite.
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When you wrote, "God help me if he had felt the 9 weight. Even I think it feels like it is like a 3 power hot shot blank with a foot cut off the end." I believe you thought you were imparting some useful information. Perhaps you were, but not to me. Let me explain.
First, no one knows what a 9 weight feels like, as there are no specifications for such an animal.
Second, I have no idea what a hot shot blank is, and besides, I understand power designations are different for different manufacturers.
Third, I have no idea of the length of the blank, which end of the blank was cut off, and what effect that might have on its power and action.

On the other hand, were you to show something like the BIG Picture that Tim showed, everything would be crystal clear. That is why the URRS was developed.

Russell,

At some point in your life, if someone told you it was "60 degrees" outside, you'd have had no idea if you needed to put on a coat. Today it's second nature but only because you've become accustomed to what that number means to you. If you'll use the CCS a few times, those numbers will also become second nature to you.

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Don't pay me much attention. I was just feeling frustrated and could relate to the original post. I get Tom's points and rest assured I will be taking advantage of Bill's work.

I reckon I was a little surprised to learn that I couldn't take a fly rod to someone and have them suggest a line. I'm beginning to see fly rods are very dependent on the caster and how he will use it. Given that other blanks are more application specific (ie you can buy a live bait, popping, hot shot, drop shot, etc, etc) I suppose a fly rod user only has line weight to tailor the blank to his needs.

Eventually I will get it. After so many years of fishing it is funny to find myself clueless about a rod. I'm starting to think the fly rod blanks I was thrilled with have far too stiff a tip to provide the proper feedback to make them a top notch fly rod blank.

Russ in Hollywood, FL.

It's not hard to recommend a line, but to do that with any accuracy you need to know how much line the fisherman will be using. The thing is, the weight of 20 feet of a 5-weight line and the weight of 60 feet of a 5-weight line are not the same thing. Unlike a spinning or casting outfit, where the lure weight is fixed, a fly line's physical weight changes as you move more or less of it beyond the rod tip. A 4, 5 and 6-weight line all weigh the same thing at some respective distance.

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