The reason the choker guide is located "from the reel spool" and not "from the tip" should underscore which one matters.

Per the article, there will occasionally be oddball set ups such as the one you describe with very large reels on very short rods. In those cases, the choker guide can only be the tiptop.

..................

Tim Collins Wrote:
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> So how many guides would you have between the
> choke and the reel?

Russell said - FWIW....statements do get made like"there should be no need for more than two or three reduction guides"....or "there is no need for more than three, maybe four, different size guides".


I've always thought that as well. A lot of people defend the 27x but noone seems to want to specify the guide sizes and spacings layout used in the rod Mitchells's original post. His spool is nearly 55mm which would require a 25mm or 30mm butt guide. A 7' blank with a standard length rear grip should put the reel seat position in a specific location - the guide sizes and spacings shouldn't be a secret . So can anyone recommend what Mitchell should be using for this rod or one they've built that's similar?

here: find your rod blank use one of these

[www.rainshadowfishing.com]

[www.stcroixrods.com]

Put the guides on go fishin

Bill - willierods.com

Tim, there is nothing for anybody to defend. A method has been offered for free. It is your choice if you want to try it. Most that have think it works great and saves a lot of time and effort. I certainly do. On my shorter rods with bigger reels I end up just like Mitch. On my longer rods with smaller reels I will generally have three reduction guides and several running guides.

The original post had a spool diameter of 2.16". That requires a 30 mm butt guide. The choker guide size depends on largest connection to be passed. The rod is seven foot so normally we would be looking at eight guides. It was stated the math placed the choker 7 inches from the top.

That puts the reel spool 18.68" from the butt end of the rod. Hardly your "average" rod by any means. Most people don't load a spinning reel with 80# braid and go fishing for tuna. We don't know the particulars of this build but considering his other work I doubt it is your average bass rod:)

Point being extreme rods will not fit the one size for all mold. I'm sure Mitch knows what he builds isn't the norm. Us salt water guys always have those problems. Blanks choices dry up in a hurry once you get past 20#. A lot of thought goes into guide choices, static testing, and guide placement. It, along with a good drag, make the most difference in how smooth your rod fights the fish.

Russ in Hollywood, FL.

Thanks for the great input Russell. So if the reel spool is 18.68" from the butt end, the butt guide ought to be placed ahead of it somewhere in the 20" "vacinity". That occupies 38.68", and with the choke at 7", that's 45.68" so on an 84" rod, we have 38.32" between the choke and butt guide. If you are going to use 8 guides, there's 5 guides available after the butt, choke, and one between the choke and tip.

What guide sizes and spacings would the experts here put into the 38.32" space? Since the reel is a 5000 series with a 2.16" spool diameter, I don't think he's fishing for crappie. I"d really like to here how to build this rod instead of just getting a willbilly response. Thanks.

Tim you will have to understand that I can't possibly give correct answers without the blank and reel in hand.

Let us assume this is a fairly heavy rod, basically a salt water "stand up" rod. The butt grip is long since the reel spool lip is 18.68" from the butt. That almost insures the foregrip is long too. I'd wager the first guide up from the reel will be around 24-26 inches from the face of the reel spool.

This is how it would go. The choker location is fixed. The largest guide size is too at a 30 size. You need to pick your guide brand/model. Since it is a heavy duty rod lets assume a double foot guide choice like a fuji msng.

Now you run a line through the tip top and choker and attach (tape) the line to axle of the spool. You slowly slide each guide up towards the tip till the outside of its frame touches said line. If the choker guide is an 8 you might slide a 10 up, then a 12, then a 16.....etc. Because the rod is so heavy, and the butt is so long, he may only have 5 additonal guides on the rod (almost certain he has another between choker and tip top). If he fishes mono only that 30 butt guide may become a 40.

So it depends on some permade choices with regards to guide frame (which dictates height) and it depends on the rod and how far down the butt it flexs.

After all that Mitch will string a line off the reel through the guides and attach a small weight like a spilt shot to it. Then he will attach a heavy cord through the brace of the tip top and tie it to a 5 gallon bucket. Next he will start adding water and watch the path of the line through the guides as the rod loads. He may feel the need to add or delete a guide or make adjustments to their location. He may discover the brand/model of guide he choose is unsuitable for this particular blank. This isn't uncommon on a heavy spinner as one wants a rugged double foot guide but often needs the height only availiable in a single foot guide.

You seem interested in hard numbers. I have no such rod but I have a 7 foot spinning rod with an old school large diameter reel. Let me go measure. From the tip down I have 3.75" (8 guide size), another 3.75" down (8), 4.125" (10), 4.625" (12), 5.375" (12), 5.75" (16), 7" (25), 9.25" (30). The 30 is 22.25" from spool lip. Spool lip is 19.5" from butt end of rod. Blank is an old kunnan and I fish 15# mono on the original first series all graphite 4500 shimano baitrunner. If I told you my latest build on a new 8'6" hot shot blank with a braidia 3500 loaded with 20# braid it would be night and day.


Okay, if you are still with me this may sound like a lot of hoops to jump through. Fact is Mitch and I would be doing this no matter how we went about deciding where the guides went. No two blanks, even so called indentical blanks, would end up with the guides in the same location. Do understand we (salt water fisherman who are after big fish on light tackle) are fanatics and the job will likely be much easier for you. (I hope I am not assuming too much Mitch)

Now for you it all comes down to this. Will you try it? It isn't hard but you have to cop to some things upfront. First is forget how you think a rod should look. Second is to understand all rods fish best as a cane pole and anything we add only screws them up so we want to add the least and lightest possible "stuff". Next is to let static testing tell you where guides should be. Only the choker and the size of the butt guide are fixed. All else are adjusted based on loading the blank from the tip only and observing line flow.

The first time or two will be trying. Be sure to buy every size guide made in a line up and a bunch of the choker/running guides. You will use the extras later on. l promise the results will be worth it. More to the point, afterwards you will KNOW, beyond any shadow of a doubt, that you can better any factory rod no matter the cost. And you will never look at a guide spacing chart again because you will be secure in your knowledge of what is best. That is powerful stuff my friend. And it works. We have nothing to gain by pretending otherwise.

Russ in Hollywood, FL.

Russell Brunt Wrote:
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> You seem interested in hard numbers. I have no
> such rod but I have a 7 foot spinning rod with an
> old school large diameter reel. Let me go
> measure. From the tip down I have 3.75" (8 guide
> size), another 3.75" down (8), 4.125" (10), 4.625"
> (12), 5.375" (12), 5.75" (16), 7" (25), 9.25" (30).

Thanks Russell, that's what I was looking for. If that's the "new way" to build a spinning rod, I'll stick with the old way - those transiton guides seem awfully close to me. I prefer Fuji's method which I believe Tom adapted into the "table edge method". In the Angler's Resource link to the left is exactly how I prefer to both static test and the method to set the choke guide. I'd probably try to build a 7' rod with 7 guides, 6 if I could get away with it. I don't see the need to put a guide 3 3/4" from the tip since that section is pointed straight in a fish fighting condition. I'd probably go with a 25-16-8 and drop to a 6 choker (Fuji's spool shaft angle)and 6's on out to the tip. Every spinning rod I've built pretty much follows this same setup - the only difference is how much blank is beyond the choke guide. I've never broke a rod fighting a Salmon so what I'm doing must be working good enough.

Thanks for the guide size and spacing layout - I just prefer to build them a different way. Thanks for the info.

Tim, here I was thinking you were new to all of this. I would not have bored you with such a long post had I known. I was going to link to a post about a comment Mr. Gardner had made about the value in adding an extra guide or two. Imagine my surprise when I found out you were part of that old post!

The numbers provided reflect the old way (but you know that). It is an old rod and reel. However if the rod is short enough, and the reel spool is large enough, there is little difference between old and new way. 25, 16, 8 is much closer to what I now use, but then the reels are smaller because of braided line. I did say a current build would look much different. On that old Kunnan the tip is never out of the equation.

Now perhaps you could answer a question? I have grown fond of hot shot blanks. Can you tell me in what way other salmon or steelhead blanks are different? I know what a back bounce is so forget that one. My needs are for a fast action rod, with a light tip to protect live baits, but with a powerful butt to control large fish. A noddle rod is useless for my needs. Needless to say there are no salmon/steelhead here hence no rods to go feel.

Russ in Hollywood, FL.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/25/2012 03:21AM by Russell Brunt.

Russell, I'm sorry that you thought this was my first rodeo. My oldest RodMaker magazine is Volume 3 - Number 4 from January 2000 with the New Concept Guide System article. This 12 year old article seems just the oposite of the new 27X method, Fuji using the spool spindle's upsweep to determine the choke placement makes more sense than 27x to me. If you get a chance to read this article, it is quite interesting. Some time back Angler's Resourse used to speify Fuji's specific guide size and spacing for various use and length rods. So I took my 6' level and put a strip of masking tape on the edge and marked some Fuji guide spacings on it. I taped the appropriate guides on the marks and started laughing when I gunsighted from the butt - they were all concentric just like Tom said they're suppose to be - duh.

In the original post the choke was 7" from the tip. Using 8 guides would put "5 transition guides" between the choke and the butt. In that Tom Kirkman/Lloyd Starush NCG system article from 2000 states:

"by controlling the line early and bringing it down quickly to a "choke" point, we can then shoot the line on out to the tip through the use of very small running guides. The result is a guide setup that is lighter, controls and drives the line direction in the intended direction, and utilizes smaller and lighterguides, making the rod more aerodynamic and efficient. End result? More casting distance, less fatigue on the angler and greater sensitivity". And the illustration was using a table edge to align the reel's spindle to determine the choke guide intersect position.

So what aspects of the rod specs you gave earlier improve on this 12 year old method? I've built a noodle rod and a back bouncing rod. I think alot of manufactures attach "buzz words" to their blands/rods as a marketing ploy to swindle people into thinking they're getting something special. I don't know what a hot shot rod is but I'm sure it makes for a great conversation at the water cooler. But the intent of my original question was to find out what guide sizes and spacings rodbuilders are using for the 27x method. A blank's power rating, action, and tip size means more to me than a fancy buzz word in picking a blank without being able to put my hands on it first. If you do a more thorough search of my posts you will find I have asked for examples of 27x guide sizes and spacings many times - you were the first to do so which I'm grateful for. But for my rods, I'll continue to use Fuji's upsweep method versus 27x - how someone else builds their rods is up to them - I just prefer the Fuji method. Thanks for the info though.

With the chock guide on take the spool off the reel Try a streight edge on the spindle that held the spool on and it should go to the same spot ???

Bill - willierods.com

bill boettcher Wrote:
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> With the chock guide on take the spool off the
> reel Try a streight edge on the spindle that held
> the spool on and it should go to the same spot ???

Now that makes sense, thanks.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/25/2012 02:59PM by Tim Collins.

It's all good Tim. My bad for not taking the time to know whom I was addressing. I was set up but I'll play along for you entertainment. As Bill points out using a straight edge, table top, or string all gives the same results. From what I know, the only other difference is older method took more stock in reel upsweep angle and the newer method ignores it.

Hot shot rods are designed to troll hot shot lures. The current alone works the lure and the rod has a very limber tip to impart just the right action. I wrongly assumed that they were popular enough that anyone who fished salmon waters would know of them.

One hot shot blank I have is 8'6", rated 12-25#, 0.576" butt with a 5/64" tip.They are an extra fast blank. Lure weight is misleading as it a trolling, not casting, weight. It is listed as 1/2 to 4 for my blank, a HS1023F. I have a lighter one handy (HS900 copy by MHX), 7'6" rated like 8-12, very wimpy tip that can cast 1/32 ounce. I have five #4's, a low 8, then 10, 16, 25Y frames (I think). Spacing from tip down is roughly 4", 8", 12.25", 16.875", 21.5", 27", 32" 42", and 53". Reel is about 21" from spool lip to butt guide. The reel is 2500 stradic on which I fish 8# mono and 5# braid on the other spool (which tests out a tad above 15#).

As you can see I am a fan of an extra guide or two. I can tell from your previous posts you are not. I suspect the waters and fish are more a factor than you or I. I say so because most all of the Pacific west guys want fewer guides and the bass and east coast salt water guys like an extra guide or two. This is amoung those that favor a non-standard amount (but wihin reason amounts).


P.S. For grins and to compare here is a 30 something year old factory wrapped conventional shimano triton rod. It is 6.5 feet, rated 20-60#, 2-8 ounce. From tip down, 3", 6.25", 9.25" 12.5", 17" 22", 28.25, 36.25". there is 26.5" from butt guide to middle of reel seat. Hard to say but call the guide sizes 8, 8, 10, 10, 12, 16, 16, and 20. A little overkill for a 6 1/2 foot rod perhaps but live bait blanks need a lot of guides, especially in the tip area.

Russ in Hollywood, FL.

No problem Russ, I'm not sur what you mean by you being set up for my entertainment but the best thing about building your own rods is you get to build them the way you. I'm not sure using the reel upsweep is an older method as it is highlighted more in their advertising than it was in the past.

I've probably comitted blasphemy recently - I was going to build a new 10wt for salmon fishing this fall - instead I bought a Coltron Tradewinds production rod from an outfit in Pennsyvania . . .

Hi Tom,
I've built 2 rods so far using a straight edge intersecting the rod as the placement for the chocker , as described in your book. Could you briefly explain placement using the reel spool measure? How is this better? Thanks.
Harry