So, while building my rod, I was playing around with my Sages and a TFO and noticed that the guides seem to be wrapped on a 90 from the spine. Is this my imagination or does this sound right? It makes sense in a way because most people including me, at least when throwing shorter casts, seem to throw with the rod at a bit of an angle Am I correct? I ended up putting mine on the inside of the bend because I didn't want to screw around on my first rod.

Spine has nothing to do with casting. Sage, like most commercial manufacturers and many custom rod builders, disregard the spine and build on the straightest axis.

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After many years of good natured debate on whether or not rod spine contributes to any part of rod performance, I have seen enough legitimate studies, tests, and data in the past few years related to spine having zero effect on twist or casting accuracy, that I think the guys building on the straightest axis are probably right. In the meantime, I have yet to see any actual study or data that proves that building on the spine does anything to create a better rod. That argument seems to continue to be based on theory rather than fact.

But even after what I just said, I still don't think that building on the spine is going to hurt anything. It just doesn't make an difference and that's why one guy can build off the spine and another on the spine and both have great rods that work equally well.

Once you set that spine up -- check out the straightest access to be sure

Bill - willierods.com



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/17/2012 02:15PM by bill boettcher.

Good to hear! I started reading up on it and it seems to be just what you guys stated, a big drawn out debate.

I read a post on here that one guy said if you do not build according to the Spine with a spinning rod -- Get this ___the guides will turn upward ___

Bill - willierods.com

At this point I don't think it's much of a debate - all the data comes in on the side of the argument that says spine make no difference. I have yet to see anything proving that building on the spine prevents rod twist or improves casting accuracy. It's just not there.

However, as Ken said above, there is no right nor wrong way to orient the spine. You can't cast or fish on a single axis anyway.

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During my last 40 years of rod building, I have properly addressed the "spine" more times than any other subject. Many exceptional rod builders have researched, tested and documented their results including Tom, Don Morton and many others. The fact is the "spine" is the result of an action. What is more important is, are the guides going to be "on top" or "on the bottom" of the blank? If they are going to be on the bottom (spiral wrap or spinning) no problem. No noticeable torque will occur regardless of the spine location or straightest axis! If they are on top of the rod, it will torque one way or another when under stress regardless of the location of the so called spine. Both Tom and Don developed mock- ups that clearly demonstrate this fact. The location of the spine as related to guide placement when casting, may or may not have an impact on casting accuracy. There simply are too many variables and casting styles to measure or make this determination. The general consensus is, it is not measurable and has little or no impact. Many of the high modulus rods made today have a spine at 0 and 180 degrees, and are generally very straight. Building a rod on the "straightest axes" will work just fine. Surprisingly, many are on or opposite the spine. Even if it's not, there will be no noticeable difference in rod performance. I fully recognize there are many rod building publications that stress the importance of "finding the spine" that confuse new comers to rod building. While some of this information may be incorrect it has a tendency to confuse them and results in many questions. In addition many old timers refuse to accept the fact that the "spine" is not important to the placement of guides for the best rod performance! Therefore, we will continue to address the "spine issue" for sometime to come. Perhaps some rod designer will come up with a design that has no noticeable spine, and the spine question will die a peaceable death!

Pat Vinzant, Wetumpka AL

Excellent point. But then, what would we have left to argue about?

The main thing is, beginners in particular shouldn't worry over it too much - you won't ruin your rod if you orient the spine in the "wrong" position. Build your rod and enjoy it on the water.

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I once had a vivid demonstration of torque on roller guides on the wrong side of the spine. I watched a guy fight a 250lb Bigeye tuna on a stand up rod that had the guides on the underneath of the spine. The rollers kept flipping upside down under the bend of the rod when the rod was under stress that only a tuna of that size can give. Everyone on the boat was dumbfounded as to why that was happening. As a rod builder the answer was simple. It was amazing to watch the rollers flip underneath the bend of the rod. Took 60 minutes to get the fish in which was lucky enough. Ever since then on a conventional rod I make sure to find the spine and put the guides on top. Not as important on a spinner or a spiral wrap.
Just my 2 cents.

One issue that I've had may or may not be related to the "spine" question. Perhaps you guys can help me out here. After reading on this forum to build on the straightest axis, that's what I've been doing but my experience is that with 2 piece spin rods that are 6-7 feet long, this results in the top section twisting out of alignment after 30 minutes of casting with 3/4oz lures. I've checked that it's not a loose ferrule problem as the joint is still tight but the guides are off by a bit. Could this be caused by the torque generated as a result of the the 2 sections not being built on the spine? Or is it more a problem with my casting style? I've experienced this issue with 4 different 2 piece rods rated 6-12lb and 8-15lb and casting 1/2-3/4oz lures. Any idea would be most appreciated. Tks!

Mitchell,

The rod wasn't flipping due to the spine - it was flipping due to the lever arm effect of the guides. Spine plays no role in rod twist. All rods with the guides on top will attempt to twist when under load until the guides are on the same side as the load is coming from. This is why fly and spinning rods don't twist, no matter what you do with the spine.

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Linus,

Again, spine has nothing to do with it. The lever arm effect of the guides causes twist. Rods will turn until the guides are facing any load placed on the rod.

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Tom Kirkman Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ................
>
> Linus,
>
> Again, spine has nothing to do with it. The lever
> arm effect of the guides causes twist. Rods will
> turn until the guides are facing any load placed
> on the rod.
>
> .................

Tom, thanks for the explanation. I guess it's got to do with how I cast and fight fish that the top section is twisting at the ferrule. Is there any way to prevent this short of re-aligning the sections periodically? I've tried ferrule wax, no wax, twisting to fit tight etc. Nothing works!!

Some guys tape the sections on the longer rods to help prevent it happening during casting.

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Tom,
Did the roller guides twist under the wrap and epoxy on that rod? I have several roller guide stand up rods that I have caught tuna up to 250lbs with and the guides were rock solid stable with heavy drag settings.

They tried too, guaranteed. That's just simple physics. If you don't believe it, next time you're using that stand up rod and have a fish on, slip it out of the gimbal and relax your grip - the rod will flip upside down. With a spiral wrapped rod, with the guides on the bottom, you can do the same thing and the outfit will remain upright. This is because of the lever arm effect of the guides.

Any rod with the guides located on top, is inherently unstable. And you cannot make it stable by any particular spine orientation. We used to carry a ball-bearing rod holding device to the Expo each year just to demonstrate this fact. It opened the eyes of a lot of spine proponents.

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Here's something you may also wish to take a look at, in terms of building stand up or trolling rods, it may be important to you.

[www.rodbuilding.org]

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Tom would you be willing to say what the blanks were rated at? I tend to buy salt water series blanks but if I knew a standard series in, say a 10-17# rating, would deadlift 21 pounds before failure it would open up more choices for me.

To this day I'm still amazed at how consistent your results were. Not that I think it likely but It would be intersting to compare results of the same blank made with the newer resin in the future.

Russ in Hollywood, FL.

Even with the amount of hand labor involved, if the quality control is good, any blank of a given model should be very close all the way around.

The blank model used for the data in the article was rated for 10 to 17 pound line. So the deadlift capability was above the line rating.

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Does this still hold true to smaller diameter blanks like ultra light or ice rods?