New guy here getting ready to build a 5wt. on an MHX blank for some lighter inshore saltwater fishing down here in Florida. I had pretty much decided to use Rec guides on my first rod build but now that I am down to the wire, I am starting to think twice. My BVK has Recoils, my Xi3 and TCX do not and I honestly can't tell any difference other than slight noise increase with the BVK when using anything other than Rio or Cortland Crystal (smooth coating) lines. The NRX uses them, and Sage does not. I am sure this subject has been beaten already but upon searching I couldn't find anything. Can someone point me in the right direction? Maybe I am searching wrong? Or maybe you can throw me some opinions and I can weigh them out.
One more thing, the Sage Xi3 5wt. starts with a size 16 stripper. Seems a little big to me but can it hurt anything?? I would think, if anything, it would be an advantage on slight tangles sliding through while shooting. They use 16, 12, 5, 4, 3, 3, 2, 2, 2 on it. I want to go with what Sage does just because I am a fan and they have done quite a bit of testing but I also want to hear opinions from rod builders here. Remember this is for inshore use. I am obviously not going snook fishing in the pass with it, mostly trout and smaller size reds, but I would like it to be as tough as possible without getting out of hand. Thanks in advance!

They haven't actually done much testing in terms of the guides they use. In fact, using all those various sizes only adds unnecessary weight and creates a "stair-step" line path which is less than as straight as it could be.

If you want to start with a size 16, and know that #2's will pass all your required connections, try 16 - 10 and then as many #2's as needed. The same Sage rod fitted with this set up will be a little crisper - it'll react and recover a bit more quickly.

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Rods are built to catch fisherman. They have to look correct. You need to ask yourself where you stand. If a rod looked really incorrect would it impact your confidence in it to the point where fishing results suffered?

A couple/few posts down is one about guides for a TFO and it has a link to a post with a bunch of questions I asked. You might find it worth the read,

You can push the envelope. You know what those other rods do. Are you brave enough to consider something like a single foot 12 minima with the rest being single foot #2 rec's? Might as well do something different and see if it makes a difference:)

Russ in Hollywood, FL.

This is exactly the kind of stuff I am looking to hear. I have been staring at catalogs for a week going nuts. I think I am getting a little warped from all the different things I am reading. @Tom, it doesn't necessarily have to be a 16 but I am thinking that is the way I am going to go. I like your reccomendations compared to the ones from Sage. Much more simple and sounds more efficient. Russell, your idea sounds pretty cool too. It would definately give the rod a tight, clean look but would it affect anything as far as shooting line smoothly? I like the comment about rods looking "correct". I am all about different ideas if they are better/more efficient. Performance definately takes first place over looks, but looks help. Damn, now you got me thinking!

Brad, this is where we have to talk lines and knots. Did you read over the posts that were linked? They discuss shooting heads and guide choices. If it is just a floating weight forward albrighted to backing 2's may do!

Russ in Hollywood, FL.

Probably going to be a Rio Bonefish 90% of the time since I know that line pretty well and it is available in a 5wt. It's actually a six if you look at the grain weight but from what I have heard the MHX is pretty stout. I wouldn't mind leaving some options open for a shooting head setup though. Are you referring to the 7wt. BVK thread? I'll check it out. Thanks man!

One more thing I forgot to ask is about the flexability of the Recoil guides. This has to affect casting and overall feel of a rod. I think I am going with snakes but for the stripping guide/tamer, you would think something rigid would be more sensitive to rod response, right?

Brad Karczewski Wrote:
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> One more thing I forgot to ask is about the
> flexability of the Recoil guides. This has to
> affect casting and overall feel of a rod. I think
> I am going with snakes but for the stripping
> guide/tamer, you would think something rigid would
> be more sensitive to rod response, right?


You will never be able to tell.

Light = good, in terms of rod response. The REC guides being lighter will excel at this. The snakes are also much more flexible than any alternative. Since the strippers are closer to the grip, they matter much less. A light top, will matter the most.

I built a 5 wt MHx and like it very much, I used the REC single foots and 12-10 Fuji titanium strippers.

You don't need a tamer guide on a 5 wt. I'm not sure you need a tamer on any rod to be honest.

Drew

Because a tamer guide doesn't change the spacing of the other guides, it's a simple matter to tape one on and try it. If you like it, wrap it. If not, un-tape it. As Drew said, it may not make any difference at all. But it's easy enough to find out.

On the chance you're not up to speed on aspects of a tamer guide, you'd size it the same as the 2nd guide, and place it about 4 inches past the stripping guide.

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Very cool. This is why I started this thread. You guys have cleared up a week's worth of confusion for me! Now, one more thing. Russell mentioned above about going with just one stripper and the rest 2's. I think it would look pretty clean but do you think there would too much of a jump from say a 12 or 14 right to the 2's? Tom, you are correct about me not being up to speed on the tamers. I was thinking that was just the term for the second stripper! Thanks. I know it's a lot of silly questions but once I build my first and move on, I will start experimenting a bit more. It's great to step out of the realm of "factory" rods and learn the actual reasoning behind certain components (plenty in stock for example) being installed on certain rods.

As far as the line is concerned, there is no "jump." The line is very small compared to the guide opening. Guides sit many inches apart and the difference between passing from a 16 to an 10 or 8, or even 2 is of little to no consequence for the line. The only thing that changes as far as the line is concerned is that of a degree or two in angle.

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Makes sense. Is this a fairly new theory? Just curious as to why rod manufacturers have been stepping the sizes down the rod for so long. Is it an an aesthetics thing?

Because the guide manufacturers offer them.

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I think it's an aesthetics thing. As someone else said, "you have to catch the fisherman, first."

Either that or the factories buy the guides in sets.

I do step down the strippers, like 12-10 or 16-12, but I make all the runners the same size.

If you think about it, the NGC for spinning rods is the same thing--a short run of progressively smaller initial guides, followed by small same-sized guides all the way out to the tip.

Drew

What has to be realized here is that the big name rod companies must build each rod to do everything. When Joe fly fisherman goes into his/her local shop to plunk down $300 - $1000 on the newest bestest greatest rod built this year they expect this same rod to work equally well in the salt, snow, swamp, and stream. So even the mostest high performance rod they make must be a compromise to keep sales up and warranties down. Guides tend to be bigger double foot, both in size and wire to deal with ice, knots, and incompetence. Single foot guides aren't used much because they can "sing" when the line gets dirty and pull out or bend a little easier, again think warranties. Also most companies start there salt water rods at 6wt so the guides on your rods may not be salt rated.


Scott
Not an expert, I just play one on-line

It's interesting, I was in the local fly shop yesterday buying a few flies and looking around. The Sage One, Sage's newest flagship model was there for $850. I was surprised by the price since my factory Z Axis 2 years ago was $200 less. The rod was very nice looking with decent attention to the wraps and finish. The cork was particularly nice quality. In light of Scott's comments above, I was surprised to see the guides were not RECs, but instead were plain old chrome steel, with stainless Fuji strippers. For a "One water" rod, I would have thought they would use titanium components, anticipating that it might see some use in salt water. I also noticed the running guides were sized progressively with at least 3 different sizes on the rod.

Anyway, while I was there, a guy came in to trade in a 1 year old 8wt Sage TCX and reel, and buy a "One". They gave him $200 for the rod ($750 new) and $200 for the reel (Bauer MXP4) so much for the value of 2 year old high end, barely used gear. Since I witnessed the transaction, I offered the shop the same $200 for the reel and so it's now mine. I haven't even told my wife. LOL.

For the original poster, I'd recommend you use the RECs, since you'll be using it regularly in the salt. The extra $20 you spend on the rod now, will mean nothing the first time you cast it.

Drew