I'll try not to be too dense here but please keep in mind I'm not a fly fisherman. Do keep in mind saying things are a matter of taste or whatever works best for you helps little.

I have a 5 weight (RX7), 6, 9, and 12 (all RX8) weight to build (not current production but old utmost closeouts). Budget is a big factor. The 9 and 12 will see salt water and the 5 won't. The 6 is a maybe as it seems surprisingly strong.

First reel seats. Is there any rhyme or reason to the part numbers? Why only aluminum seats? Why would one want to consider downlocking seats (tip heavy rod and balance on a lighter outfit?). Can you suggest a decent budget seat as most are pricey?

Next grips. I'll assume one wants a forward edge to push their thumb against for casting. It seems the heavier rods sport full wells and the lighter ones half wells or cigar. Please give me pros and cons of each. I'm used to sliding some EVA on a blank and have never worked with cork. Maybe a handle kit is wise? Again decent budget suggestions are needed.

Next guides and there is where I have the most confusion. I looked at some guide charts and I was a little surprised. Snakes go down to 2/0 but I didn't see anything less than a 1 advised. St. Croix listed things like 3,3,3,3,4,4,4,4, with a 12 or 16 stripper. For the heavy rods they might go up a size in the snakes and add a tamer. Other than the knot to the backing what has to clear? That hardly seems a concern on a 5 weight panfish rod. Wouldn't the size of the stripper be dependent on rather the reel was a large arbor or not?

Last fighting butts. If I build blank through and have a cap/plug why couldn't I use a spinning seat? Would the couple/few inches I give up in overall length be a factor? Do all the fighting butts use the same thread size? Maybe I'm thinking wrong and reel seat weight is needed for balance?

Assume the 5 weight is strickly fresh water panfish. Why wouldn't I be looking at snakes near the smaller end? Say 12, 5, and then all ones? I think the 6 weight will prove to be something special so count on it seeing a little salt water. Clearly the 9 and 12 weight will. For the 6 weight would light recoil snakes be up to big bonefish (the blank darn sure has the power)? At what point would one go with ceramic guides? A 12 weight could see tarpon or sailfish in my waters. If I use braid (or is that a big mistake) for backing will snakes stand up? At what line weight would you add a tamer guide? When would you go with a Sic tip rather than a loop? I'll assume stripper and tamer would be castig rame guides and not high frame spinning guides. Names, sizes, and part numbers would be appreciated.

Sorry to ask for so much. All I can say is I'd be more than happy to totally lay out a salt water build if someone asked.

Russ in Hollywood, FL.

Graphite/Nylon seats are generally sized by ID. So a size 20 has an ID of 20mm. Most aluminum or similar seats are not necessarily sized per their model numbers. The nomenclature may or may not have anything to do with size.

Graphite/Nylon seats, while rarely expensive, are exceptional when it comes to getting the job done. Some may object to the "plain jane" appearance but you can dress them up various ways with a little imagination.

You only need 3 guide sizes on any rod, fly rods as well. A stripper, an intermediate (and this one isn't absolutely necessary) and then running guides of all the same size. This set up represents the best, straightest line path at the least amount of weight. You'll have to gauge what the smallest size you can use is, but generally a size 2 handles anything that doesn't require passage of large knots or loop to loop connections.

There is lots to recommend all ceramic guides, particularly in a Titanium frame, for saltwater use. More money but lifetime guides with minimal care. Ceramics are ever so slightly heavier, but on 8-weight rods and up, you're not likely to adversely affect anything with that tiny bit of additional weight. Less than that and I'd go with Pac Bay Minima guides. Perhaps the best of all worlds in terms of weight, form and function. Not as durable as ceramics, but probably more than enough for most lighter line weight fly rods.

Lots of ways to add fighting butts. Will your customer use a rod tube? If so, be aware of the total length required. Add 2 inches and it better be removable. Otherwise just build it on to the end of the rod. All you need to do on those heavier rods is get enough length behind the seat so that the angler can get the butt back under his wrist which then brings the arm into play.

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All good questions.

Reel seats: Aluminum are the lowest price. The model numbers are confusing, but a A7 3.5" long for the 5 weight is good, A8L2 (two lock rings) 4" or so long is good for 9 weight, etc. Maybe a PacBay channel lock reel seat for the 12 weight.

Grips: Cork must be reamed out to fit the blank, it will not stretch. Some like the full wells on a 5 wt, but most like a half wells or western. Light rods you don't really need to get the thumb into casting, and some people use the index finger on the blank for delicate stuff. Full wells for sure on the saltwater. If you use a recessed reel seat, get a cork grip with the correct recess or you can carve it out with a dremel.

Guides: much confusion and differing opinions. I generally go one size down on running guides from the guide charts and I like single foot guides on trout/panfish and snakes on saltwater rods. 12, 5 sf, all ones or twos will work on the 5wt. You can use light wire on the tip section of the 5.

Fighting butts: It should go on the butt of the blank so the sections remain the same length to fit in the travel case. They give you room to reel when you have the butt jammed in your belly fighting a lunker, so a longer one on the heavier rod.

Sorry, I don't know about bones, tarpon, recoil, braid. The water's cold here.

Reel seats--Just me, but the Fuji graphite/nylon reel seats are ugly. If you want to use them, the size 16 is what you want. Your rods will look cheap. That's OK but most people want a nice looking fly rod. I am a big fan of the Batson high end salt water seat kit for heavier (7 and up) rods. It's a very nice seat, works well. looks very nice. Not bad for $35 or so. My favorite is the Struble U-15 or U-18. Their matching cork is really nice, but it's pretty expensive. Another great contender is the Alps recessed triangle reel seat. It's not cheap, but the last 3 8wts I've built have used this seat. You are using remaindered blanks, so not going super high end is likely smart. For the weights you list you'll want an uplocking seat.

For full disclosure, I have used Fuji #16 graphite seats on Utmost remainder blanks. Ugly, but very functional. I'm building a 9wt now for "chuck and duck" fishing this season on the Kenai. My fishing buddies might disown me. I figure with a 50% chance of breaking a rod in that crazy fishing, the graphite reel seat will be fine.


Grips--Hard to beat a full wells grip. I like them on everything down to 5 wt. A Half Wells grip is slim and elegant-use on light rods. Another grip to consider is a "Fenwick" grip. Really nice on a 5 wt. Over 5 wt I'd use a Full Wells, but this is highly subjective. If you go with a kit, you won't have a ton of choices. My default is a Full Wells.


Guides and sizing--I really, really like the REC guides. 5 wt and down the single foots are GREAT. 5 weight and over the REC snakes are GREAT. The recommendations on the St Croix spacing chart are nearly infallible. They work, you might do better by testing as described in the library here. I make all of mine the terminal size and don't step them down. You can save a few $$ with stainless snakes, but the RECs will never ever corrode no matter what the conditions.

Your stripping guides can be whatever you want, but, 5wt and 6wt will do great with 12-10 strippers. I like the Fuji KW guides. For 8 and up, I'd use 16-12. For your 12 wt, I'd use 20-16-12. You might consider the Batson MXN guides for this. They are really nice and not expensive.

Regarding the number of guides, hard to go wrong with 10 on a 9 foot rod.


Fighting Butts--These are good. Most people don't use them below 8wt or so. I put a small one on a 5 wt I built for me. Your choice, but definitely use one over 7wt. I like the type you glue directly to the blank, not the removable ones, your call.


Tops-You didn't mention this but the lighter the better. On lighter rods, the REC tops are the lightest you can use. Over 5 wt, I use the Fuji TFAT tops. They are light enough and perform really well. Generally you will want an 8 ring or maybe a 10 ring on your 12 weight. For inexpensive blanks, in heavier weights, standard wire type tops will work fine. I'd use a "large loop" for 8wt and up.

Good luck. Nice blanks for the $$. You will end up with some nice rods.

Drew

A tamer can be added at any time. I would build the rod first, do some test-casting, then tape on a tamer 3 or 4 inches up from the stripper, and cast some more. If it turns out that it helps the distance (and you don't mind the unorthodox look), wrap it.
I know tradition says half wells for lighter rods, say up to 5 or 6 weight, but I prefer a full wells on all fly rods these days. Once upon a time, I preferred to be able to touch the blank for delicate casts, but I found that the smaller grips required for that started to fatigue my catcher's mitt of a hand. I now find that a full wells is more suited to all-day use, and definitely needed for heavier rods. Cork is not difficult to ream, just takes a little patience and constant fittting. Even a handle kit is likely to require that you ream cork.
I would glue the fighting butt to the end of the blank. Removeable fighting butts seem silly to me. To much fuss.
If your blank is long and/or heavy, mount the seat downlocking to help balance the rig. The fighting butt will help keep the reel out of the dirt. Uplcoking seats for lighter rods to also help keep the reel out of the sand. If I'm in a sandy location, and need to set the rod down, I lay my baseball cap on the ground, and lay the reel on top of that. Yes you can use a spinning seat but make sure that it isn't too large for the foot of your fly reel. If you use a spinning seat, you may have to get creative to find something to trim the transition from seat to cork, if that matters to you.

George Forster
Fort Collins, CO

On a previous post I inquired if anyone had experience with the ALPS guides in saltwater. They are SS316, and, as long as they are not coated, they should hold up very well, and they are very inexpensive, compared to titanium.

I guess I should have said the rods are for me and I do build salt water rods. So no concerns on reaming, static testing, how standard reel seats are sized, etc. I'm just not equipped to glue up rings and shape a full wells. Just knowing L2 denotes 2 locking rings and an A8 is bigger (longer only?) than an A7 helps. Sems obvious now but most sites don't list dimensions at all. Any concerns with regards to brand of reel matching seat size? Seems some mention they won't work with a pflueger. Not sure on reels yet but Trion, Konic, and Rise are on the short list. The 5 weight only needs cheap line storage.

Points of general common agreement are full wells and non-removable fighting butt (which would seem to allow a graphite spin seat). I wasn't sure if the recessed seat was needed to aid in hand placement for casting or just a looks thing? If I hadn't read a little I never would have known about needing the grip for thumb pressure to cast. That is the type of mistake I must avoid and need advice for. I can handle ugly. I just need a proper functioning rod to learn on for now.

5/6 weight seems to be a dividing line on full wells and light wire guides. 8/9 weight seems to be one on considering ringed guides. How about the tip? I'm generally a fan of putting my best guide there so would a titanium sic be too heavy on a 6 weight? I'll assume no problem on the 9 and 12 weight.

I'm getting the impression guides need to be bigger than I thought. 1's or 2's running guides are plenty small enough for a 5 weight and 4's or 5's for the 9 and 12 weights. If I were to use minimas or ringed guides, and I assume I would use what they list as fly rod guides, what ring sizes would be right for the 9 and 12 weight? I see an 8/10 tip being advised above. Left to my own I would not have dreamed of ordering #10 guides for runners. If I was building the blanks as spinning rods I'd be using something in the 4 to 6 size range at most. Then again fly line is much larger in diameter.

Do I have things sorta right yet? I'm not feeling quite ready to place an order yet but I'm a lot closer with y'alls help:)

Russ in Hollywood, FL.

On any fly rod where I expected that I might use loop to loop connections, I'd stick with size 8 ringed guides at the minimum. The Minima's have a larger ring opening that most ceramics listed at the same size so you could go a little smaller with them. So a 6 or 7 would give you about the same ring opening as most size 8 ceramics.

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Russel when in Rome do as the Romans do!

If you need information on salt water fly rods, the heavier class for sure, seek the information from those who specialize in the task.

Not me I have only built one - what a project!

Do a search on Michael Taylor for some experienced salt water fly rod set up.

It is really a complex and interesting subject - the fighting butt issue along with the reason for guide selection and set up was discussed in detail on this Forum. The wrong fighting butt has actually disqualified anglers from getting certified World Records.r

Check the archives - this link establishes that things can be accomplished

Take a look [rodbuilding.org]

Also: Link to Picture of Pre Micro 16/18 Wt [www.rodbuilding.org]

Russel B: "Any concerns with regards to brand of reel matching seat size?"

No, kind of a standardized thing at this point. If you use an older reel, test fit for sure. On the bigger rods, add Galvan to your reel list. Great reels, great drag, and will hold up to salt water. For graphite seats, the size 16 is the only one that will securely hold the reel foot, especially side to side movement.


Russel B: "I wasn't sure if the recessed seat was needed to aid in hand placement for casting or just a looks thing?"

Just a looks thing, but a recessed hood does look cleaner and better.


Russel B: "How about the tip? I'm generally a fan of putting my best guide there so would a titanium sic be too heavy on a 6 weight? I'll assume no problem on the 9 and 12 weight."

For a 6 wt, you will likely get away with it, but for a moderate action rod, the lighter tip is better, generally. The SiC is overkill in my opinion. On your 9 and 12 the Fuji Titanium Alconite (TFAT)will be great.


Russel B: "1's or 2's running guides are plenty small enough for a 5 weight and 4's or 5's for the 9 and 12 weights. If I were to use minimas or ringed guides, and I assume I would use what they list as fly rod guides, what ring sizes would be right for the 9 and 12 weight?

2s will work well on the 5 wt, 1s will be ok if snakes, if single foots, I'd use 2s.
For your 9 wt, 3or 4 size snakes would be appropriate. If you use a nail knot to attach your leader to your line, I'd use 3s. Not a big fan of ringed running guides on a fly rod. tried it, thought the line got hung more during casting, and went back to snakes. I also found the Ringed Titanium "fly guides" to bend easily and not tolerate being bent back into position. Maybe you are more gentle with your equipment than me. For a salt water rod, the REC titanium snakes will be hard to beat.
I've not built a 12 weight, but 5s sounds about right. For the first one, I'd use the St Croix recommended size. They tend to err on the side of too big as opposed to too small, so it should work fine.

Good set of projects to keep you busy for awhile!

Drew

Okay, one more question. I keep hearing mention of knots, connections, loop to loop and such. It sets off bells and my ignorance meter pegs. My only knowledge is of a regular DT or WF line. The only knot is fly line to leader and certainly that isn't cast through the guide train (right?). So these other "connections" could only be to the backing I'm thinking. Now perhaps I'm missing shooting heads, running lines, etc. Stuff that is needed when I discover floating lines aren't all that.

Russ in Hollywood, FL.

With a regular WF line, which is most likely what you'll use, you still have to consider the line to backing knot when you expect to encounter larger fish that could strip more than the fly line length (90' or so) from the reel. If you're fishing for bonefish, albacore, snook, etc., then you'd almost certainly want that knot (Albright knot is a good one) to easily pass.

For greater casting distance, some will use a shooting head, which is really nothing more than the weighted portion of a fly line. It'll be about 25 to 35 feet long and for easy switch-out connected to a fine running line (plastic or mono) by a loop to loop connection. When this system is in play, you may well have the L to L outside the rod tip when casting, but upon retrieving the fish, it will have to pass back through the guides on the way to the reel.

Don't go overboard on guide sizes, of course, but be aware that a size 4 or 6 ceramic isn't likely to pass the L to L connections easily. They'll go, of course, but stepping up to an 8 can make a world of difference. On the heaviest rods, it's not unusual to see 10's for running guides.

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That clears that up Tom.

Thanks everyone. I'm feeling a lot more comfortable about putting together an order now. I'm in luck as utmost just put up some seats so maybe ugly isn't in the cards after all!

Russ in Hollywood, FL.