After paying close attention to packing guide wraps and making certain there were no gaps, I applied 3 thin but soaking coats of CP. Applied top coat and I now have a blotch at each tunnel opening.

Short of not using CP or by using NCP thread, how do I never have this happen again???

Because you used thin coats, not enough CP was applied to fill the tunnels. The CP dried on top of the thread, and when epoxy was applied and drew into the tunnel, it soaked into the thread there from underneath.

Use a little more CP next time you apply it, and take a toothpick and apply a drop to each tunnel opening.

.................

To actually fill the tunnels with CP?

Scott what size guides are you working with?

Is your color preserver water or solvent based?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/21/2011 12:49PM by Bill Stevens.

20, 16, 7 and micros. All single footers.

Also when I said thin coats, I initially soaked the wraps with a heavy coat and then removed as much as I could.

with the dryer at a quick turning it will hold the wet coat

Then when you see the threads -- the thread soaks in the CP put on another coat Don't leave it to really dry this way it will soak in Then I put a good drop on each side of the feet for more in the channel and let that soak in

Bill - willierods.com

If you are using micros on a rod that deflects along with a water based color preserver - if you fill tunnels with color preserver you may encounter problems due to water invasion under the wrap. Advice is to fill tunnels with finish.

It is a light action rod and I have 8 more in the near future to build. I have had problems with the finish cracking right at the tunnel opening which I thought had something to do with too much CP and not enough epoxy to adhere things. So now I am pretty confused as to what to do and am becoming convinced that CP actually is the devil.

It is water based CP. Is solvent based better?

I have also read to apply a coat and allow to dry thoroughly before the next coat. Is this correct?

The thread holds the guide to the blank, not the epoxy. The epoxy simply encapsulates the thread in order to protect it from weather, wear and tear, etc.

CP won't crack. It's very flexible. Epoxy can crack, it's less flexible.

I'd give the CP time to dry between coats. 2 good wet coats applied a few hours apart is generally all you need.

..............

I have had the same problem with the lighter color threads ( red in particular) and using CP. The "tunnel" area always came out lighter color than the rest of the wrap. In order to get the same color throughout I fill the tunnels with a toothpick , thus solving the problem. I never use but one coat. After it dries, the next coat will not soak through first. I will definitely saturate the thread, but I like to see the texture of the thread after the CP dries. I figure the finish will adhere to the thread better if there is a rough surface for it to grab on to. Of course that's just my technique and it works for me.

J.B.Hunt
Bowling Green, KY

I wipe the brush across the tunnel opening, and then blot the excess.

Don't know about that

Some have posted that after several weeks they have put another coat on and without sanding have had no problems ??

Bill - willierods.com

You can't sand CP - you'd be into the thread in an instant.

..............

Tom Kirkman Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The thread holds the guide to the blank, not the
> epoxy. The epoxy simply encapsulates the thread in
> order to protect it from weather, wear and tear,
> etc.
>
> CP won't crack. It's very flexible. Epoxy can
> crack, it's less flexible.
>
> I'd give the CP time to dry between coats. 2 good
> wet coats applied a few hours apart is generally
> all you need.
>
> ..............
Tom,
I absolutely mean no disrespect but I think this statement may be a little misleading .
It is my understanding that finish does much more than keep the wrap protected and guide feet protected from the elements doesnt it? I've always believed a wrap without CP soaks up the finish and strenghtens it. With out finish the feet would be slipping around and guides getting out of alignment. Eventually gaps would form and thread would loosen and guides would be falling off. Who wouldn't attest to stripping a guide that wasnt CP'd comes off harder than a guide that was CP'd. I think finish epoxy does more than keep the rain and UV rays out. I avoid CP as much as possible for guides.
Respectfuly
Jim

Some years back we performed some pressure tests on guides that had been A. wrapped but not coated with anything, B. wrapped and coated with CP and epoxy, C. wrapped and coated with epoxy only. The side pressure limit difference between CP wraps coated with CP and without (epoxy only) was less than 7%. In other words, using CP does not create inherently weak guide wraps.

What we found was that as long as something formed a "shelf" along the edge of the guide foot, the guide frame would distort before any slippage would occur. This can be done with either CP or epoxy, although being much thinner it takes a great deal more CP to achieve it.

My point earlier is simply that it is the thread that holds the guide to the rod, not the CP or the epoxy, although you are certainly correct that they do tend to stabilize the guide within the thread.

...................

Rarely ever use CP here, but do have several brands on hand, and have used it many times. Using no CP creates a stronger bond and better strength in a guide wrap. Using CP SEALS OUT ALL the adhesion properties that finish has (I know it doesn't have a lot, but it does have some), leaving the finish doing nothing more than creating a shell over the CP. Just sitting on top of the CP.

Think of CP as a barrier coat that finish cannot get through. After all, that is what it is, a BARRIER.

Like said, anyone that removes/replaces guides where CP was not used can attest to the guide being much harder to remove. When CP is used, guide removal/replacement is just plain easy.

DR

Scott, back to your issue. I also use CP and when it comes to the tunnels I apply CP into the tunnels with a small brush. I push the brush bristles into the tunnel with a slight amount of CP on it. I don't saturate that area, just enough to get it wet. That seems to work for me. I use CP on almost everything. I currently use Cason's Crystal Clear water based. It seems to work best (for me) and seems to soak in better like maybe it's thinner than some of the others, but that's just my 2 cents.

David Dosser
Coshocton, OH

Tom Kirkman Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Some years back we performed some pressure tests
> on guides that had been A. wrapped but not coated
> with anything, B. wrapped and coated with CP and
> epoxy, C. wrapped and coated with epoxy only. The
> side pressure limit difference between CP wraps
> coated with CP and without (epoxy only) was less
> than 7%. In other words, using CP does not create
> inherently weak guide wraps.
>
> What we found was that as long as something formed
> a "shelf" along the edge of the guide foot, the
> guide frame would distort before any slippage
> would occur. This can be done with either CP or
> epoxy, although being much thinner it takes a
> great deal more CP to achieve it.
>
> My point earlier is simply that it is the thread
> that holds the guide to the rod, not the CP or the
> epoxy, although you are certainly correct that
> they do tend to stabilize the guide within the
> thread.
>
> ...................

Thanks for the interesting info Tom.
It leads me to the next question that has been beat to death and answers are as vairied as CP preferences...how much thread tension, and is there such a thing as too tight, other than the obvious indications of thread fraying or braking? I've heard too tight can cause blank failure, tight but still be able to move guides for alignment but my ability and their ability to move guides is probably different. Different size guides give better leverage ect ect.....It may sound like splitting hairs but I have pondered getting an inch pound torque wrench to use on the thread tensioner so when I find just the right tension I can replicate it as close as possible every time.....Can you say obsessive compulsive??? HE HE!

It would be nice to have some actual numbers to represent the best average tension per size of thread, metallic, holoshimmer, polyester, nylon, ncp etc. I generally wrap fairly tight so that it takes some effort to move the guide afterwards and haven't had any issues. I have most of my problems when I wrap too loose.

David Dosser
Coshocton, OH

Hi Jim,
I bought a tension measurer from Madeira for that purpose. It measures from 0-250 and I tend to bind Madeira towards the upper end of that scale. You could also use a small spring scale and when you find that "magic" number you can replicate it.

As for the cp issue I've been using it on all my wraps since I started building over 30 years ago and the only time I had a problem was on a blank with no finish and a single wrap. Got some darkening down the sides of the feet and that was with a medium red. Never had any strength issues and never had a guide come loose.

Did a test with Madeira thread awhile back with and without cp to see if there was any strength issues and I was surprised to find that the guide with the cp was actually more difficult to work loose than the one without cp. There was also better penetration of the epoxy along the guide feet than the one without cp.

I doubt that cp would cause any issues with guides but a lot of people disagree. To each his own!!!

ESFNEM Col
Port Kembla, NSW
Australia