I'm building 2 MHX6.5 med light spinning rods. Using a Shimano Stradic 2500 reel. I figured my choke point to be 40" from the end of the axle. Using BYAG 25 & 16 as my reduction guides. If I run a straight edge from my axle to my choke point I can't get the high frame guides inside the straight edge. I placed the 25 at 19" from end of axle and the 16 at 30" from the axle end and a 6 BLAG guide at 40" for my choker and ran 6's all the way out as the running guides. Performance was good, it out performed my Shimano 6.5 ML rod. I ordered some LV guides and got them to sit on the inside of the straight edge, I used a 25 and a 12 and got the outside edge lined up exactly with the straight edge. I kept the choker and running guides the same. Went out and tested the rod thinking I was going to have better performance and lost about 7' in casting distance. What am I doing wrong?

Nothing. Trying both set-ups allows you to chose the one that works best for you.

Since you already have these guides, try this: Push the 25 out to about 21 inches from the spindle end. Now re-align by placing the straight edge from the 25 edge to the choke guide edge. Try that and see if it improves things furthers. If it does, go with it. If not, back up to your best set up thus far.

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I have measured this reel before. Try a 16 at 23 and 8 at 29 and your first runner at 34. I could be wrong, but this is a fairly small reel and I think the choke point is closer than you're placing it. More in the neighborhood of 35 inches. If you start this close and move toward Tom's suggestions you'll probably hit it somewhere along the way.

Tom: The idea of positioning the stripper and then realigning to the choke point is EXACTLY from Fuji's new KR CONCEPT...have you read it or is this intuitive on your part? I'm impressed!

I wrote about doing this 10 years ago in one of my earlier articles on the NGC. With the lack of sufficient height guides available at that time, it allowed the concept to be pursued without having the butt guide a tremendous distance from the spool face. I suspect somebody at Fuji read it somewhere down the line.

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Thanks for the replies. I have 2 rods, one I wrapped with the best performance and set up I could up come up with but haven't varnished it yet. The other rod I'm moving the eyes around and casting it to see if i can come up with better performance. The way that I came up with my 40" choke point was to tape a piece of string to my reel axle and line up the string in the straight line with the axle and see where it intersects my blank. Which came out to about 40". Not satisfied that I had that exactly right, I took the reel to work and put it on an electronic comparator and determined that the exact angle of the axle was 4.4 degrees. Mounted the reel to the rod, measured from the bottom of the rod to the center of the axle, and that was 3.100" and had the tool maker trig it out. It came out to a little over 40". Every time I moved that choke point forward or back, I've lost performance. So I feel that the choke point is correct. Tomorrow I'm going to try different reduction guides in different positions to see if I can get it to perform any better. The rod already out performs my Shimano and Fenwick 6.5 ML rods by quite a bit. So I'm happy about that and if my theory is correct on the choke point on any rod that I use a Shimano Stradic 2500 reel will have the same choke point. Is that correct? Thanks guys and I'll post the results as I get them.

With same reel Seat your mesure should be right (the blank diameter have little impact.

Tom Kirkman Wrote:
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> I wrote about doing this 10 years ago in one of my
> earlier articles on the NGC. With the lack of
> sufficient height guides available at that time,
> it allowed the concept to be pursued without
> having the butt guide a tremendous distance from
> the spool face. I suspect somebody at Fuji read it
> somewhere down the line.
>
> ...............

So Fuji copied your NGC?

That's not what I said, nor what Jim was talking about.

At the time (1990's) there were instances where it was impossible to mount a butt guide with sufficient height to put that butt guide on the direct path between the spool spindle and the choke guide. I suggested that the butt guide be mounted where it gave the best casting performance and then the line path for the transition guides redrawn between the butt guide and pre-located choker guide.

Apparently, Fuji has began promoting something similar with their new KR Concept. This was not part of their original NGC system.

..........

Fuji's new KR CONCEPT is pointed at efficient, long casting micro layouts and the products being introduced are micro guides. We are working to "decipher" the information Fuji has provided mainly to be able to give rod builders an easier method to follow than the broken english explanation we have received from Fuji on how these rods are built. The basics are there but we would like to see it quantified to the point where we can do the math and include it in GPS. If anyone wants to play with it when the guides are available in mid January, following is what we "pulled" from Fuji's information. A few more things need to be finalized.

1) Locate the stripper and choke point as you always have using the NGC

2) Select a KLH stripper of proper height to match the spool height and angle.

3) Locate the choke point

4) (This is where it gets "new") Add a running guide in the location where your last reduction guide would have been. In effect, you'll be adding an additional micro runner closer to the reel and shortening the reduction train by the distance between those two guides...moving the choke point closer to the reel. Currently, GPS can give you the position of the last reduction guide (once we plug in the KLH heights), but GENERALLY speaking you''ll be adding that new runner ABOUT 5.5 to 8 inches closer to the reel.

5) Run a line from the stripper to the "new" runner and locate one or two KL reduction guides on that line as you would with NGC.

The result is a Rapidly Choking reduction train and line that is down on the blank running smoothly SOONER. These rods are noticeably smooth and quiet, very light and easy to handle and very sensitive. We have had a very limited supply of samples and have been taping and testing layouts for months. The rods feel really good. If you want to test the theory before the KR CONCEPT guides are widely available, the NMV guides work well.

Based on this description you can see why I noted Tom's rough similarity to Fuji's new concept. The obvious difference is that Fuji is actually moving the choke point in closer to the reel and leaving the stripper where NGC puts it. Tom is floating the stripper...both require redrawing the "line", that is the similarity I was referring to.

Don't be surprised at all if fuji did copy something Tom wrote about the NGC way back when. The first article I ever saw about the NGC was in either Saltwater Sportsman or Sportsfishing or one of those and was written by, Tom! While giving fuji credit, he made the statement about how you could do this with guides other than those sold by fuji and if the butt guide height wasn't high enough, you could set it by test casting and then refigure the line path between there and the choke guide. This must have been closer to fifteen years ago.

I would bet that most all the rod companies subscribe to Rodmaker. After all, we custom builders are or should be a step ahead of commercial rod companies at all times. From what I've seen on factory rods in the last ten years, they follow what the custom builders are doing, not the other way around.

I was typing at the same time that Jim was. In no way was I criticizing fuji. Their history of innovation is well known and respected by custom builders. My point was only that it should never come as a surprise that one of the big companies has picked up on something brought to light by a custom builder and incorporated it into their own systems and products.

look at all the ideas that rod makers are using that came from rodbuilders Split grips The spiral wrap

Bill - willierods.com

For the record, we were very happy to see Fuji's KR CONCEPT because they have been BEHIND in addressing the trend toward shorter reduction trains, high frame small ring guides etc.. However, this has always been Fuji's MO. They are methodical and thorough in their approach and when they do finally speak it is from a position that we have become convinced over the years is critically analyzed and can be applied to a wide range of rods. So, we won't be playing the "who was first" game, because Fuji was not first. However, Fuji has drawn from the ENTIRE body of knowledge, Tom and all the other experimenters included, then done their own research and used those results as a basis for their thoughts on an updated concept. Only after their OWN research has confirmed what others are saying do they invest hundreds of thousands of dollars in creating products to satisfy the needs dictated by those research results; which Fuji is more than willing to admit usually STARTS WITH YOU GUYS. In addition, when they do uncover information that is new, they are more than willing to share it with everyone. We hope it's a win/win for everyone.