Hi all,

I am currently building a 6'0", 2-6lb ultra-light spin rod (Batson SP720-4).
I had intended to use guide sizes 6,6,6,8,12,20. However considering that I would like to keep the size and weight of the guides and wraps down as much as possible, I am thinking of making the first guide a size 16 instead of 20.

I had roughly checked the guide layout using the New Concept system and size 20 did work out perfectly.
So: (a) Will a size 16 guide make much difference to the line flow / casting given that it is about 10mm lower in height than the 20?
and (b) Would there be any noticeable difference anyway to the feel of the rod? - the 16 is about 1 gram less in weight than the 20, plus a shorter/narrower foot?

Thanks

Dale
Hobart, Tasmania, AUS

Some things to consider, what is the spool size of the reel and what line itself are you going to be using. Depending on if you have to deal with any knots in the line, I would think you could go to even smaller running guides to save more weight, you should have no issues going down to 3's or 4's. If you are using a smaller diameter spool, you could go down to as small as a 12 for the first guide. Not sure exactly what guides you have chosen, but the M series guides from Pac Bay give you height with the smaller ring. I had a similar rod setup I did awhile back, guides were 16, 10 and 4's out to the tip. As far as what line is being used, braid and mono come off the spool differently and you can use a smaller first guide using braid.

I doubt that you'd notice a difference in feel or performance between the weight of a 16 and a 20, given the location of the guide. The 16 could change the line path enough to decrease distance. You might gain a bit of performance, and possibly feel, by going with smaller running guides, say, size 4 instead 6. Guide material is another important consideration. Pac Bay Minimas (thin metal ring insert) are going to be lighter (and have a bigger opening) than any guide with a ceramic ring, in a particular size.
These are just my thoughts. Others may chime in with better ideas. Your own test casting should be the final judge.

George Forster
Fort Collins, CO

What you need are high frame M series guides, I have had excellent results using size 16 M guides both in Minima and ceramic styles. The first thing you need to do is get rid of the #6 guides, replacing them with light guides out by the tip will make much more difference than changing the first guide.

Another thing to keep in mind if you are trying to build as light as possible is that spinning reel seats are incredibly heavy compared to the rest of the parts on an ultralight rod. The last ultralight rod I built, with a foam core carbon skinned Tennessee handle, complete ready to fish weighed less than a size 18 spinning reel seat by itself.

There's one way to tell for sure - try it both ways.

............

I would stick with your original layout. It will work great. The slight weight saving that you will get with the smaller guides may be negated by the potential loss in performance of the rod.

Wrap it with two or three different sizes of guides if you like and choose the setup that suits you, your line, reel and fishing requirements best. It only takes about 10 minutes to tape on different guides and to try a bunch of test casting and retrival to verify what you need.

Roger

I was told by another builder to size the first spinning guide based off of the spool lip size on the reel. Say the spool lip is 42mm (Pflueger Patriarch 9525 in this case), you divide that by two and use the closest guide. 42/2=21. So I should use a size 20 guide to start for whatever rod I build for this reel.

The 1/2 spool size is a GOOD indicator. IMO, the smallest running guides that will pass any knots, etc and the fewest different guide sizes should give you the best performance. I try to avoid using more than 3 different sizes of guides on a rod. I'm a BIG fan of Minima M style guides for U/L rods.

Mike (Southgate, MI)
If I don't want to, I don't have to and nobody can make me (except my wife) cuz I'm RETIRED!!

Like other have said, I'd go w/ smaller running guides. I built a 6'6 light action rod recently for a 1000 size reel and used M framed 20, 12, 6, and the minima size 4 fly guides to the tip. worked out nicely.
You might need a 4th running guide too.

look at the closed spin reels for kids

With the small what is it a 6 ring on the case and they work well

You should try a even a 10 M guide ???

Bill - willierods.com

Size and limpness of the line you use on this light a blank can make considerable difference on the guides you can get away with. Don't know if it's still available, but the german line Tectan was about as small and limp as any and was available from Cabela's. The downside was abrasion resistance, made a terrible steelhead drift fishing line.

I use a 4 lb braid on my UL's Works well and I get a bit more casting distance
But you will need a breakable leader for hangups

Bill - willierods.com

Bill,
I always keep a dowel or leather glove in the boat for the times that I need to break braid.
Take about 6 wraps on the braid around the dowel - pull straight down the line, with the rod out of the way and it is easy to break the braid.

Don't use your bare hands, or the braid will cut you to the bone.

Roger

Roger

I tried to break the 4 lb braid Wrapped it around two scrap pieces of blank and it did not want to break

That is why I use a mono or some thing as a leader so it breaks and not the rod - or my hand
Nice and limber and the first time I cast with it I got more distance Don't think any one makes a 2 lb braid I would be using that

I read a lot here and wonder why a rod rated at say 20 lb mono and people put 50 lb braid on - And then wonder why there rod broke ?? Doooo

Bill - willierods.com

Bill, do you mean you use the braid with 4lb diameter or braid rated at 4lb? I can easily snap 4lb braid in my hands, however; 4lb diameter braid is a different story.


Tom

4 and 6 LB - l lb diameter I can break it but would not try with my hands To thin and will cut before breaking

Bill - willierods.com

I have built a few of them and have gone 16 down to micro 4s and wow is it light and what a difference. I did use a M 16 for the first though before dropping down.

For whatever it is worth -

My common sense is that if you look at any high speed pictures of line going though the first guide on a spin set up it always is sliding on the bottom of the ring -- so I figure if Gravity is helping a higher ring yet smaller ring will help to control the line

Look at the spin cast reels with there 8 ? rings on the cover they have ?? And they don't cast bad at all

So I if at all possible I make my path go though the ring and not over it

Bill - willierods.com