Hey everybody. Got some saltwater spinning guide questions.
Ive built some rods in the past that live in key west and are exposed to a harsh saltwater environment and lots of fishing. Long story short, the guide frames didn't last due to corrosion.

Blanks are 20-40lb rating and line is 50lb braid. I want to use FUJI double footed guides for durability/strength. I'm pretty sure titanium frames would be top of the line, but what would be just underneath titanium and be able to handle the salt? Stainless frames like the KWSG? Or something else?

Thanks in advance for any and all advice.

Good evening Jesster,
My own experience is that rinsing, washing, rinsing and drying is the best way to prolong the life of a rod used in saltwater. I personally use 316 stainless steel or titanium alloy frames. for my saltwater rods. I hope this helps and I expect you will receive a large variety of ideas on this issue. Good luck.

Michael Blomme

BTW, Fuji doesn't offer 316 SS guides, only 304 which isn't nearly as corrosion resistant. Bottom line, go with titanium or go with a different brand.

FWIW I like virtus light/nanolite rings for that class rod.

Russ in Hollywood, FL.

So is the KWSG 316 or 304?

Jesster,
you might want to look at the Alps guides from Batson. They make a variety of guides with different types of frames and ring materials.

Mike Blomme

I use a lot of Fuji Hardaloy guides and have never had a problem. and I surf fish quite a bit and I do not wash and rinse all the time

I use a lot of Fuji Hardaloy guides and have never had a problem. and I surf fish quite a bit and I do not wash and rinse all the time. I use SIC tops on most of my rods



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/29/2011 05:01AM by Barry Thomas Sr.

I fish a lot , year round - I live 300' from the ocean. I have used alconites on my surf rods for a dozen years or so, and corrosion has not been an issue. I rinse my rods with fresh water EVERY time I return from fishing, and immediately. You may decide to take some time off and skip this preventative step once in a while, but rust never rests.

I haven't had issues with Fuji stainless ... but I also rinse VERY well immediately after getting home each trip. I have seen what happens to rods that aren't rinsed ... corrosion, light at first and then destructive. If they are for personal use - no problem. If they are being sold - use Titanium Alloy or ALPS, as noted.

I think most ring types, nano lite, alconite, hardloy, sic , will hold up, it's the frame material that rusts out. Titanium is the catsass, but is also the priciest. I'll check out the alps stuff.

I try to only use Titanium when in saltwater. I have seen customers' rods even with the black Alconite guides, that were "rinsed" after every trip, rust. I have seen the chrome Alconites rust in just 3 weeks. I realize, maybe not being rinsed well. The same customer has had Titanium SIC guides for 15 years without even a blemish. The same customer also has American Tackle's Titans since I believe 2006, without any corrosion. As far as Double foot Titanium guides, the "TKW" from Fuj, or the Virtus from AMTAK would be my choices

FWIW I do okay with fuji guides when used around home. My problems are on long range trips where the rods are soaked in saltwater for a few days before they can get rinsed off. I still get several years out of the guides but I'm old enough to have a couple/few decades on some guide sets.

Russ in Hollywood, FL.

I have built many rods for charter and head boat captains and mates. No one that I know of is harder on their gear than these guys and gals.The rods often stay on the boats with little or no maintenance. Titanium IS the answer. No other guide frame material that I have used has held up under these conditions. Some are better than others but none of them can compare to titanium. American Tackle offers many different styles of titanium guides. The Typhoon series would be a good choice for your saltwater spinning application. The ring lock feature of these guides with the pressed fit ring makes them even more durable. Check out the web site listed to the left of these pages and feel free to contact me if you have any questions. mick@americantackle.us

MIck Hinton
American Tackle Co.

I'm with Mick. By the time you figure the added cost vs a lifetime of "carefree" maintenance, Titanium is the way to go. The way I see it if Titanium is $50 more it's only 50-cents a trip for the first 100 uses and I got the "All Done" beer and a shower a few minutes sooner...100 times! I would also be wary of blanket statements about 316 vs 304 Stainless. 316 has more Molybdenum and that's what makes it more resistant to sodium/chloride corrosion but if you examine it a little further you find some pretty interesting stuff. Turns out that stainless is a fairly complex metal and produces a surface VAPOR that creates a barrier to corrosion. It's actually a surface layer of Chrome Oxide that is only microns thick yet prevents corrosion from getting started because no oxygen is present at the surface of the metal. A highly polished surface with no sharp "V" bends or crevices is better able to set up this vapor barrier. On less smooth surfaces, tiny molecules of sodium or chloride find places to hide in tiny scratches and crevices and will pit 316 almost as fast as 304. The literature rates 316 about 3-5% better than 304 at resisting corrosion so I'm guessing that highly polished, smooth radiused 304 is about as good as 316 with an "average" finish. The other interesting thing is that stainless doesn't "rust". There is not enough iron for it to oxidize, turn orange and flake in the traditional sense. Orange on stainless is an indication that some sort of carbon contamination has been left behind through grinding or filing or sometimes even polishing (after learning this I don't use metal files anymore on guide feet, always a stone). "Pits" can be dark in color, but the real problem with pits is that while they don't look too bad on the surface, they can bore straight through the metal over time (microscopically) and weaken it to the point of failure. One more point, 304 is used almost exclusively for marine fasteners...nuts, bolts, screws etc because it is inherently stronger and more wear resistant than 316. On that same note, stainless hardens (strengthens) when "cold worked" without heat. Unlike many metals that are "heat tempered", heat actually relaxes and softens stainless. Any stamping and or bends a stainless guide goes through must be done slowly and in very small increments to avoid heat build up and a loss of strength in the final product. Fuji, for example goes through over 20 small (cool) bends when forming a frame which assures strength in the final product but also adds a little cost.

I would defer this post to Bill Stevens, who seems to know a lot more about this whole stainless thing than I do. Bill, if I have given any bad info here please chime in.

"Titanium" has become a marketing term and means very little by itself. "Titanium" can mean a layer containing titanium deposited by a vapor and only a few molecules thick. "Titanium" might refer to solid titanium metal, or it could refer to a nickel-titanium alloy, like REC guides. Coatings, whether titanium or galvanizing (zinc) are prone to failure if even one molecule at a time can pass through a gap in the coating. The chemical nature of the oxidation process of iron/steel is such that a small entrance point for oxygen actually accelerates the corrosion process.

"Titanium" has become a marketing term and means very little by itself. "Titanium" can mean a layer containing titanium deposited by a vapor and only a few molecules thick. "Titanium" might refer to solid titanium metal, or it could refer to a nickel-titanium alloy, like REC guides. Coatings, whether titanium or galvanizing (zinc) are prone to failure if even one molecule at a time can pass through a gap in the coating. The chemical nature of the oxidation process of iron/steel is such that a small entrance point for oxygen actually accelerates the corrosion process.

Jim I. - Thank your for posting some of the information concerning materials used to manufacture guides used on fishing rods - pretty complex subject huh!

I would like to expand on one of the subjects your post opens: "All Done beer"

Modern cans are generally produced through a mechanical cold forming process that starts with punching a flat blank from very stiff cold-rolled sheet. This sheet is typically alloy 3104-H19 or 3004-H19, which is aluminium with about 1% manganese and 1% magnesium to give it strength and formability. The flat blank is first formed into a cup about three inches in diameter. This cup is then pushed through a different forming process called "ironing" which forms the can. The bottom of the can is also shaped at this time. The malleable metal deforms into the shape of an open-top can. With the sophisticated technology of the dies and the forming machines, the side of the can is significantly thinner than either the top and bottom areas, where stiffness is required. A single can-making production line can turn out up to 2400 cans per minute.[citation needed]

Plain lids are stamped from a coil of aluminium, typically alloy 5182-H48, and transferred to another press that converts them to easy-open ends. The conversion press forms an integral rivet button in the lid and scores the opening, while concurrently forming the tabs in another die from a separate strip of aluminium. The tab is pushed over the button, which is then flattened to form the rivet that attaches the tab to the lid.[citation needed]

The metal fishing rod guides made using stainless steels and titanium alloys are subjected to many more problems than a cold chug-a-lug!

Phil E. oxygen actually keeps properly prepared stainless passive, it is a good thing - the real problem caused by oxygen is the effect it has on imbedded impurities, free iron, left by manufacturing processes and tooling - our first mistake leading to later failure is covering the metal surface with thread and finish which traps the surface contamination. It leads to the pitting surface sites for ferric Ion corrosion and sites for chloride (saltwater) stress corrosion cracking

Beer drinkers now can access "Aluminum Bottles"! Someday rodbuilders may have non-metallic guides! Then the problem for rodbuilders will be "How Do I Torch My Finish To Keep It Bubble Free Without Melting The Guide Frames"



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/30/2011 08:56AM by Bill Stevens.

Thanks Bill, I knew I could count on you for a no-nonsense answer ;•) I think what your saying is that oxygen is a key ingredient in forming the Chrome OX-ide layer that protects the surface; covering it with thread and epoxy limits oxygen and actually triggers the whole corrosion domino effect? Sounds like something we have no way around. Does the embedded iron, lacking oxygen under the epoxy, still pit the stainless surface?

Where do you see the "orange" - where do guides break -

Neck, or other highly stressed place like bend radius, where finish bond may break loose or separate, sneaky stuff gets in, oxygen changes the valence state of imbedded iron, converts surface contamination to the "orange stuff that looks like rust", like a nail laying on moist ground, pit is activated, sneaky salt water gets in, can not escape by casual flushing, sits for a while, fisherman reaches down to straighten bent guide, Pop Goes the Weasel.

We All Do What We Gotta Do!.

Prepping guides will also create susceptibility to fractures and corrosion.