I see that there are a VARIETY of ceramic rings. What exactly makes a ceramic ring SIC?

And are all companies SIC essentially equally slick? For example Fuji advertises theirs as diamond polished etc. But are other companies' SIC rings essentially the same in performance?

Thanks,
Mo

SiC is Silicone Carbide. From what I understand, it is the hardest of the ceramics- you can dull a metal file on it. Are all of the SiC guides from all of the companies equal? I have no idea.

jeremy

The only thing you could do is do a search here and see what builders say about the different guide materials

Even the lesser materials are said to be able to handle a lot of lines even braids ???

Bill - willierods.com

Mo, as you already know, asking rodbuilders may may not provide the information you seek.

Start here: Click on - [www.ceramics.nist.gov]

Then carefully read the specifications of the manufacturers.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/07/2011 05:04PM by Bill Stevens.

Here is some additional food for thought for you in selecting guides. I found some data on the relative hardnesses of common mateirals made to produce guides. There are a bunch of hardness scales out there but I used values from the Knoop Hardness.

Agate = 600-700
Chromed Steel = 1800
Aluminum Oxide = 2100 (includes hardloy, alconite, etc)
Silicon Carbide = 2480
Diamond = 7000

In general hardness determines abrasion resistance, so the SiC is more abrastion resistant. However, it is not greatly more abrasion resistant then the much cheaper aluminum oxide. To sum up you can say that all companies SiC is equally hard and either SiC or aluminum oxide should handle braid with ease. However, the quality of the manufacturing will determine how slick the guide is.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/07/2011 04:39PM by Andrew Lang.

Batson has a short explanation of different ring materials they use in their online catalogue. Here is a link.

[www.batsonenterprises.com]

I think there can be significant variation between manufacturers as to the hardness of the materials, hence, they are not real interested in publishing it.

Our research shows that there are indeed differences in the quality of SiC. Proper "pressing" into various forms requires "clean rooms" and special precautions to assure the SiC is not contaminated in any way during the process. Flaws and fine dust particles can have a substantial impact on the integrity of the final product. SiC is superior to other materials in a variety of ways (hardness etc) but two things stand out in guide rings. First is heat conductivity, the ability of the material to move heat away from the line (heat can build far faster than most would think). SiC has a heat conductivity of 60 W(m • ªK) (don't ask what that is other than a way of comparing the materials!). Zirconium Oxide, for example, measures 2, and Aluminum Oxide measures 18. When reviewing features of the materials, SiC is always mentioned as a good conductor of heat, Zirconia is always mentioned as a good insulator (non-heat conducting). The second factor few ever discuss is "coefficient of thermal expansion" - how much does the material expand and contract as temperature changes. Over time is would appear that this characteristic would have an impact on the frames ability to hold an ever-changing ring. Zirconia has a coefficient of 10.6 10-6/ªC (whatever that is), about equal to cast iron, Aluminum Oxide rates an 8.1 and SiC's coefficient is 3.7. SiC expands almost 3 times LESS than Zirconia with heat applied and less than any other material used in rings. Silicon Carbide is he only known combination of Silica and Carbon. In almost all categories: Hardness, Flexural Strength, Modulus of Elasticity, Heat Shock Resistance, Chemical Resistance, Polishing Characteristics and resultant Coefficient of Friction...Sic is the top contender. If you want the best possible guide rings on your "baby" it's going to be SiC. I'll let ya'll decide if it's overkill.

That's good info Jim, where does Alconite fall out number wise? It has become my go-to guide, especially in the titanium frames, and your own website makes it sound more fracture resistant than SIC, which is why I tend to use it. Does it have different properties than Hardloy even though they appear to be the same material(Aluminum Oxide)?

Here is a Wiki on SiC: [en.wikipedia.org]

Jim, THANKS for the info. Nice of you to wade in on the topic.

I ask about SIC because I had some high quality top end SIC guides in 3.5 and 4.0. Under a loupe, it was pretty clear that the 4.0 was nice and smooth while the 3.5 were rather rough. Same company, same model. Only the ring size were different. That led me to think that perhaps the 3.5 were either defective or were not polished in the same way. Hence my question as to whether all SIC are created equal - between companies primarily, and even within a company. I do have some applications where slickness is very important.

I'd be curious about Alconites too. Had no idea they had Ti Alconites now.

Thanks,
Mo



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/07/2011 07:27PM by Mo Yang.

Mo,
I have seen the same thing in other than SIC guides. i.e. it seems that often the smallest guides are not as well polished as the larger guides.
It makes me think that some manufacturers don't have the tooling all up to snuff to get the equal finish when polishing the smaller guides.

I can't say for sure. It is just that I have seen the same thing from other vendors.

Roger

Double post deleted.

Mo



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/07/2011 07:28PM by Mo Yang.

SiC is great... especially in very high temperatures - all the way up to 1400 C. If you need something that's going into a really hot environment - SiC is your choice. Zirconia ceramics have the highest strength and toughness at room temperature of all engineered ceramics though. Zirconia was actually the first ceramic able to be used for scissors and knives - evidenced in those great Fuji Zirconia scissors!

When a top quality Zirconia ceramic is used for a fishing rod guide ring, it has some very desirable characteristics which are a strong challenger to and surpass SiC. These include modulus of rupture or bend strength (890 - 930Mpa) and toughness (9-13 MPa x m1/2) that really surpass SiC. That MOR is important because it's a mechanical parameter for brittle material. Where SiC passes in tensile strength, Zirconia is a contender in compressive strength.

A Zirconia ring can also be made very thin due to it's density (5.5-6.05 g/cm3) which can help make it a light, thin guide ring and still do outstanding at transmitting vibrations. The small grain size of Zirc also allows for extremely smooth surfaces and precise edges when needed.

Zirconia is often used in parts such as artificial teeth, due to it's abrasion resistance and toughness. Regardless, both materials are excellent for guide rings.

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AD

Actually SiC is silicon carbide. Silicone is used as a grease or lubricant and in some forms as an an insert to enhance certain anatomical features.

Alex. Good info too. Thanks. I've done tests on line and heat dissipation seem important. Zirconia's low dissipation is a concern. SIC is great at dissipating heat. I wonder if Alconite is a kind of zirconia?

Mo

I've never had a ring problem or issue with any zirconia guides and tha't about all I use. Not one, ever. Not even a groove.

David Dosser
Coshocton, OH

I'm sure this is one of those discussions that could go on forever, and I'm sure every material out there has a place. I didn't include Alconite® because we don't know exactly what it is. Fuji has never disclosed, even to us, exactly what makes up Alconite®. We know there are about 5 elements in the "blend". Aluminum and some Cobalt are in there we think, but the rest is a mystery. We know it has great properties; compression, density (for smaller diameter rings), weight, etc., are all high on the scale.

As far as the quality of various SiC rings from different manufacturers, I can share this. A lot of companies can produce SiC parts. In Fuji's case, they work with engineers and chemists at KYOCERA®, one of the world leaders in producing Silicon Carbide parts. KYOCREA® facilities are state-of-the-art, and the quality of their parts is considered among the best in the world. They are a $7+ billion dollar company with 40,000 employees worldwide. They produce SiC and Alconite® rings for Fuji and as far as we know they don't do it for any other guide company. Understandably, KYOCERA® SiC is more expensive which is why Fuji SiC guides are priced higher.

I really enjoy the technical data supplied here. I'm a big nerd at heart so this is right up my alley. However, sometimes we get too focused on numbers to see the big picture. Allow me to explain. When discussing coefficient of thermal expansion it appears that SIC is a clear winner and far superior to the other mateirals. However, when you look at the values listed and know that the unit is describing a fraction increase in length or volume (not specified here) you see how tiny an amount these material really expand under any reasonable use in fishing applications. For example, SIC. If we assume that a normal fishing season spans temperatures from 20F-100F (6.7-37.8 C) this means that the ring has a maximum change in size of 0.0115%. Apply the same conditions to Aluminum Oxide and you get 0.0252%, and zirconia is 0.0330%. I guarantee that any metal they use to make a guide frame out of will expand a much greater percentage than the ring. This is why rings don't crack from temp changes.

As for the thermal conducitivy, it appears SIC is a big winner here. If you compare the thermal conductivity value for SIC it is about the same as steel and higher than titanium. For that matter, aluminum oxide is almost as high as titanium. However, again you have to look at the units. It is watts conducted along the material per meter length per degree increase. When you think of how small the diameter of line is it will be a tiny fraction of a meter, plus the length of the guide ring is also a fraction of a meter. In addition, it does not stay in one place so movement around the guide surface also helps dissipate localized heating. If you are planning on fish making long runs with braided and/or large diameter line SIC would be the way to go. However, for most other applications I doubt you could ever tell the difference.

Last, the MOR mentioned shows a big advantage for zirconia. However, all the materials listed are extremely brittle (a side effect of hardness) and while zirconia will take more abuse than other materials you can't deform the guide frame and expect it not to crack.

Ultimately, I think any material used to form a guide ring is a very hard and brittle mateiral compared to most other materials. Any material is more than up to the task of being effective in all but a few very specialized applications. To me it really comes down less to technical superiority than to what your eye, budget, and application point you to. Feel free to disagree and again I really enjoyed reading this discussion.

Check out the bottom of the page on this link when considering zirconia. It's interesting if you have questions about it.

[www.kigan.com]

David Dosser
Coshocton, OH

At least I thought it was interesting.

David Dosser
Coshocton, OH