I have noticed several posts of builders who mix different brands finishes. why do this? what does it do to the properties of the finish? I believe one builder mixes threadmaster and either aftkote or prokote..what is the final result? Could someone please elaborate for me, as i wish to do some experimenting but don't want to waste too much time.




Dave

David,
It is tough to beat the products that are supplied, as is, from our excellent sponsors on the left. Really no reason to at all mix any thing from different finishes.

Take care
REW

Roger, really? thanks for the insightful tid bit...but I think you are missing the point..thinking outside box..normal is boring...if i wanted normal would called a supplier to get info on the different brands of finish and not wasted time posting a thread ,besides i went the "normal" route several days ago on this forum.



Dave



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/19/2011 12:51PM by David Teague.

Dave,
I'm sure the individuals who posted about mixing thread finish brands would be happy to share their outcomes. Why not write to them?

Jeff

I know of a few that do it. Why I don't know.

Freddwhy (Rapt-Ryte)

Dave, the epoxy finishes we use are a two part finish an amine hardener and a resin. When these are mixed a reaction starts that leads to a cross linked polymer. The cross linking is what provides the hardness and the flexibility. There is no guarantee that an epoxy finish from two different manufacturers will have the same resins or hardeners. For example one manufacturer may be using a C16 resin and another using a C12 resin. When mixing these together, you may produce a polymer that has defects in the cross linkage resulting in a weaker polymer which may fail. If some one wants to experiment and test such mixtures to see if they hold up to the wear and tear that fishing rods undergo in every day usage, one might be able to learn something about the process. However,I for one do not want to give such advice to someone and have that person's rod fail.

Mike Blomme

fred...that is pretty much what i'm trying find out before I experiment myself...there could be a valid reason...maybe not...just wanted to start a discussion on the board and find out


Dave

David,

Two pieces of advice:

First, you're not likely to get much of a response when you respond to people like you did to Roger. Treat others with respect and you'll get the same in return.

Second, if I were you, I'd buy small sets of epoxy from several manufacturers and do my own experimenting. If you do this, you have the results right in front of you and you don't have to worry about just getting opinions. You can work on your own mix ratios, etc.

Just my 2 cents. Fire away.

jeremy

As a sidebar to this thread. Jeremy tou are right on with comment.Secondly If you want to mix a high build with lite same brand. Maybe for better coverage and pot life. Mix the same amount of resin and hardener of each and it will work. Cross matching brands I think you are looking for trouble-Bill

Hopefully Bill Vivona will chime in, he is an ambassador for this. I do this to get the best of both worlds from both of the finishes I use. Prokote, and Threadmaster. Combined it dries quicker than normal prokote, is not as brittle as flex coat, it will never crack, Uv properties are great, and the finish is easy to work with.

try it yourself and i guarantee you will be happy! just make sure its equal part of each hardener and resin from each finish.

Hopefully Bill Vivona will chime in, he is an ambassador for this. I do this to get the best of both worlds from both of the finishes I use. Prokote, and Threadmaster. Combined it dries quicker than normal prokote, is not as brittle as flex coat, it will never crack, Uv properties are great, and the finish is easy to work with.

try it yourself and i guarantee you will be happy! just make sure its equal part of each hardener and resin from each finish.

It is a mystery to me why anyone who would want to "think out of the box", or create new concepts would ever consider someone else's opinion. Critical thinkers will do their own experiments and draw their own conclusions. Worth $0.02.

Billy was one of the ones I know that does it, didnt want to out him though in case he didnt want to debate. Its all on you Gabe lol.

Freddwhy (Rapt-Ryte)

David,
To give the complete answer to your question:
The finish manufacturers have chemists who have advanced degrees and have had years of experience with chemicals of all sorts as well as adhesives of all sorts.

Many of the products that are on the market today are the results of thousands of man hours of testing, theory, calculations and failed experiments.

We are fortunate to be able to reap the harvest of their years of experience and hard work for a few $$ by buying the excellent products.

I would suggest that if you want to become a chemist, that you go for nothing less than a PHD. Chemists with only a @#$%& have very little luck in finding jobs. Even chemists with masters only have slightly better luck. But with a PHD, the doors begin to open up for your to be able to earn enough to feed yourself and your family.
Then, after spending 10 years to obtain your PHD, you can then go out and spend another 10 years, defining and refining the various properties of adhesives, finish, clarity, yellowing, aging, brittleness, cracking and all of the hundreds of other properties that make up each and every one of the fine products that we use in the rod building industry.

I certainly didn't mean to be snappish when I initially answered your question. I was just trying to tactfully say that each of these companies have HUGE money, and time investments in any of the products that hit the shelves for consumers to purchase.

At least give the supplier a break to at least first try the product as delivered before starting to make Willy nilly changes with no understanding of the chemical composition, and what you may be doing to either the product, the long term durability of the product or any of a thousand other issues.


Good luck and enjoy the great occupation of building very special rods for very special people.

Roger

Roger, I think an appology is needed..sorry bro..I believe I misunder stood your intentions with your post earlier...I thought you just being a smart----and took it the wrong way..after I re read your post I realised my mistake



Dave

I have posted extensively on stripersonline about mixing TM & Aftcote/ProKote. I have been mixinf TM/Aft since BEFORE TM was available because I helped Andy test and tweak it. I believe LAnce Dupress and Jim Gamble also helped Andy out, and they also received several samples of hte TM as it was being worked on. So i've been doin gthis on ALL the rods I build for about 6 years, however long TM has been on teh market, hundreds of rods so I know first hand, without needing a Chemistry degree that the mix works,

Why mix? Aft/ProKote takes too long to set up, and the finish is NOT durable for the fishing I do. If you bang teh rods around on a party boat, or whatever boat it WILL get a white scratch in it which does not come out even with a recoat. The finish alone is too soft for my liking. TM, great finish, but it sets up quick, and it does not release bubbles very well in the colder temps, there are micro bubbls whicich require a lotof heat to get rid of when it's colder, especailly when you mix vigorously. IT's also a very hard finish, not very flexible at all, it never has been flexible, especailly compared ot Aft/Pro. Mix the 2 finishes (equal parts of A & B, 1 CC each 4 CC total), and oyu'll have the best of both worlds - a finish that has a longer pot life then TM, not as much as Aft, doesn't take foever to set up, don't have that stupid scratch if bangs around, and is easy toget rid of bubbles, and has a good amount of flexibility.

Rather then believe me, or rather than thinking anyone who posted anything in this thread knows what they are talking about - do a test. Mix 2 CC's of straight Aftcote/Prokote, mix it REALLY VIGOROUSLY and make a lot of bubbles. pour half of it out on a piece of waxed paper. THen heat teh remaining finish, and pour that out ona piece of waxed paper. Do teh same wht TM, and then the same with TM/Aft/ProKote. Don't do anything, just leave teh finish alone and let it set up, come back after 3-4 hours and check to see if they are set up, check again ater 6. Once they are set up and somewhat cured, I'll say wait a day - pop them offthe waxed paper, and now you can flex each finish, you can see for yourelf ho wmuch better bubbles are released with/without heat, and comparitively between teh brands.

I really didn't want to post this because I know there are way so many people here who were going to chime in who had no clue whether it would work or not that would tell you what a bad idea it was. I've converted dozens of builders to the B40 mix here i the NorthEast, I ahnve't had one complaint or negative comment, everything people have told me is the opposite, how much better the mix is than using one brand or teh other. None of us are chemists.

For whatever it's worth, I've been using the B40 mix for a number of years now and I would never go back. I too was sceptical at first but after one or two rods you realize that the application method is great and even better, after a summer of hard saltwater use the B40 mix held up on every rod that I had the chance to looked at. After years of use, once you wash off the scales, bait and hardened slime the finish is still clear, hard and doing the job it was intended to do.........protect the thread that binds your guides.

Of course, if you have great results, with minimal effort, with the finish that you are currently using, you would be a fool to mess with perfection. Simply keep using and doing what you're currently doing.

Thank you Ken and Billy. Hope this helps you David. Try it you won't be sorry. DOESNT HURT!

Billy,

I know that this may be a silly question but do you think I could get away with mixing the B40 at .5cc of each part? I waste a heck of a lot as it is with the current brands that I am using at 1cc of each part.. Am just trying to keep waste to a minimum.

Tom

TOm, don't read ANYTHING on any forum and assume th eperson knows what they are doing. TEST TEST TEST. Having said that, the point as to mix equal parts of ALL 4 parts of both finishes. So yeah 1/2 CC of all 4 no problem. 1/2CC of A&B Aft/PK, and 2CC of TM - no problem either. I've mixed a ton of ratios, jus tmake sur eoyu mix equal parts of the same finish and you'll be OK.