Hi All,


It's all about the epoxy - what else could it be!!

Today was my most frustrating day in rod building, and it just makes me want to give up. But I can't as there is a list as long as my arms of friends and family wanting rods!

This is my fifth rod, and it caused me the most frustration. Not even my first rod was this bad, or took this long.

I epoxied a 9' four piece flyrod this morning, and 90% of the guides have footballs in them, and one has waves. This is not unusual for me on some guides, but not this many.

I know the main cause of footballing is too much epoxy, but I was very careful to remove as much of the excess as possible - I think.

Even though the epoxy was pretty much level when it went on the turner. Why has this happened.

I did each section using a new batch of epoxy, as I like to take my time with epoxying.

The temp was still quite cool in the morning at 60F, which made the epoxy hard to work with but I managed with the use of my alcohol torch.

I know this is hard, but can someone give me a close indication of how thin is a thin layer of epoxy?

Last night I re-read the articles in the library about epoxy and re-watched several epoxying videos - Mudhole, Getbit, and some other Youtube. But the guys in the videos looked like they were really putting it on, about twice as much as what I am.

Also, what does it mean when heat doesn't get rid of all the air bubbles in the epoxy.

Sorry for the long winded question, but I am trying to put in a much info as possible.

Thanks,

Richard

Is your rod level in the dryer? Thin is just covering the threads and if the bubbles don't come out you probably have way too much epoxy as the bubbles can't make it out .

Rolly Beenen
Rovic Custom Rods

I always try and control the viscosity directly rather than the temperature and never use heat as once the epoxy cools its going to hold any more bubbles that appear, the first coat is usually a light finish and then follow up with light, medium or high build depending on the temperature.

Richard,

It seem that you understand the problem:

"I know the main cause of footballing is too much epoxy, but I was very careful to remove as much of the excess as possible - I think"

Understanding the problem is more than half the battle, now it is just a matter of doing some test wraps and epoxy applications that result in the correct amount of epoxy on the guides.

Jeff

Rolly, the rod is pretty even, as the footballing is in the middle of the guide, not to one side, this is whats so puzzling to me.

I have been applying the epoxy the same way since the very first time, and I can't think of anything different that I have done, or that's obivous to me.

When it footballs its normally an indicator of too much heat used.

Too much finish and possibly turning to fast. Use the 1/2 turn and wick method,I think it is in the library here. The less time you spend with your epoxy during application the better. The finish knows what to do and usually does it quite well. As stated above do some test wraps on a dowel to fine tune your method.

Freddwhy (Rapt-Ryte)

While I don't advocate putting on too much and "wicking" off the excess (that's not how the article advises to do it), if you do put on too much you should definitely remove the excess. But in this case you've got several things working against you. 60F is very cool. Epoxy doesn't like to flow at that temp and when you blast it with heat, it thins momentarily, runs or sags, then quickly cools and refuses to flow back out.

In the interim, there are other products besides epoxy that suffice for thread finishing. PermaGloss, LumaSeal, or even plain old exterior gloss urethane for outdoor wood finishing.

This may help as well:

[www.rodbuilding.org]

.................

I have read that article several times and again last night.

When wiking off the finish, do I need to re-level it, or will it self level (under normal temps)

Maybe next time I will put a heater in the room and get the temp up first.

Thanks All.

Richard



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/19/2011 08:27AM by Richard Khoury.

I now always use 2 coats of finish. My first one soaks the threads and I make sure the tunnels are all filled on the guides. I have only enough finish to barely cover the threads, when it is dry, you can still see the ridges of the threads. Ont thing this does is make it much easier to take care of bubbles if they happen. Even if they happen later while it is turning, it ie easy to take a razor blade and just cut off the top portion of the bubble. The second coat fills it in and also covers the threads completely. Even for the second coat, it is just enough to cover the threads.

The very thing "you like" is the root of the football problem.

"I did each section using a new batch of epoxy, as I like to take my time with epoxying"

After mixing time increases viscosity

Viscosity controls thickness of layer

With proper technique - one batch of finish - a complete fly rod finish application should take no longer than five minutes

If you are applying the proper amount on the first coat within two or three minutes you should be able to see the "thread pattern" - it soaks the thread and fills tunnels.

Get the proper amount of finish applied quickly and the footballs will be a thing of the past - the bubble issue will also be solved with no torching.

I feel your pain! Uneven thread finish was something I fought with for a long time. What worked for me was adjusting the temperature in my work space. The room where I would do my work would normally be between 60-65F and I had many problems. I started warming the room up to about 75F and my results improved quite a bit. Give it a try.

Tom mentioned it, part of the problem might be "speed".
We have a variable speed control on one of our finish machines, and I can somewhat force a "football" appearence to the guide wrap finish.
Also, too much epoxy on the wraps to start with.
You might want to try a hair dryer set on medium to gently warm the wraps after finish is applied.
That allows you a chance to give a closer look at how much is really on there, helps remove bubbles too.
Just do not overheat it.
Holding your hand behind the wrap while warming gives you an idea how warm it really is.
And warming the room, or at least the immediate area is a good idea.
Hope this all helps, don't get discouraged, this all takes time to get it right.

Best wishes,
Ron Schneider
Schneider's Rod Shop
Mountain Home, Arkansas
[www.schneidersrods.com]
mtnron40@yahoo.com
870-424-3381

I have decided to peel the epoxy off while I still can and start over.

Thanks again for the assistance.

Richard

Stick with it Richard, you'v got great advice above. Don't let the epoxy beat you! Once you get it dialed in it will become the easy part.

Tight Lines and Bull's-eyes,

Get Bit Outdoors
407-542-7840
www.GetBitOutdoors.com
www.facebook.com/GetBitOutdoors

Richard,

Don't "wick" off the finish. Put on less.

And stop spending so much time applying it - that's not necessary and only adds to your troubles. You have a narrow window during which time the epoxy will flow and level. Apply it quickly and move on, allowing the epoxy to do what it will do, if only you'll let it. The more time you spend poking and prodding it, the worse it's going to be.

..............

I put it on thin and fast, and still stop the rod immediately for a couple of minutes after to wick off any sags. With that said, essentially every wrap will develop a small sag and require some taken back off with the spatula. I use a thin finish (ProKote) if that matters. Removing the sags in this manner really improved my finish, as in, made all the difference.

If I had to guess, your finish is setting up too thick as you apply. Mix 3 minutes, apply in 10 minutes, and forget worrying about whether the finish is setting up. A thinner/slower finish might help too.

Drew

Richard,
As serveral of the other posts pointed, out the problems have been well covered.
Get a heater and get your finish application room to 75-80 degrees before starting the finish application.

Don't dwaddle when putting on the finish. 10 guides and butt wrap should take about 3 minutes to apply.

Let the rod spin at about 20 rpm, and get finish on the butt section and each of the guide, so that they are well covered.

Then, stop the rod with the guides facing up, and let any excess finish drip off the rod, just use a brush or spatula to pick up any drip or sag that occurs.

Put on the rod dryer at 6-12 rpm and you are good to go.

The key thing is that if your room is warm, if you apply the finish quickly, the finish will be thin, easy to apply and excess will sag off and not cause excess globs on the guides or butt wrap. If the room is cold, or you take too long when applying finish, the finish will have gotten thick and will not flow nicely to get the nice thin finish that you are trying to achieve.

Total time for finish application on your 9 foot rod should be about 5 minutes or so.

Good luck
Roiger



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/19/2011 12:08PM by roger wilson.

Have your room and finish warmed to 75 or so. I do not like portable room heaters on when applying the finish but I will use them to warm it up. Blowing fans of any type during application IMO kick up dust particles.
I apply the finish with do haste and then hand turn every 5 mins a 1/4 turn. Maybe for 20 mins. then I will go every 10. for the next 40mins. Then depending on how the epoxy is setting up I might go every 15 mins at a 1/2 turn until I'm happy the finish is pretty much not going anywhere. Then I put it on a dryer but will check it every so often. Footballs to me occur when you use a dryer and I believe the turning speed is at fault . I put on light coats until I'm happy. I'm not into trying to make 2 coats cover.

Per the article I listed above, if you'll turn the rod before the finish can sag or droop to the bottom, you'll be ahead of the game. If you purposely stop the rod and allow the finish to sag to the bottom, then you've created a problem that you'll have to fix. Better not to have the problem to begin with.


..........