In the common cents info, the action angle is described in degrees as:

<59 = slow

>66 = fast

Is there anything available that would define this even further to include moderate, med fast, and extra fast? Thanks.

There's really no point in doing that - when you see a thermometer, you probably don't require "hot" "mild" "cold" off to the side of the various degree readings. When you see a blank listed as being "9 feet" you probably don't require "long" to be printed next to it.

In fact, what you refer to was only put in there to help you understand which way the scale reads (higher numbers depict faster tip oriented actions and lower numbers, slower less tip oriented actions). The purpose of having AA degree readings was to completely eliminate the need for terms like fast, medium, slow, etc. Thus, Dr. Hanneman didn't bother with a system he felt was sorely lacking in resolution - he came up with something to replace it.

If you just have to have such a thing for whatever reason, just take a few blanks you've labeled with the various terms and run the AA numbers. In short order you'll have your own custom range.

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Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 10/02/2011 09:54PM by Tom Kirkman.

My thinking is similar. Why do you need such vague terms once you have actual numbers to go by. The higher the number the faster the action and vice versa. It's like trying to learn the metric system and continually converting back and forth to the English system. Dump one and stick to the other. You'll do better and in time completely forget what fast or slow even means. Good riddance I say.

We hang a bag of pennies off the tip to determine a fly blank's ERN - I thought which was basically to know which line to use to load it properly. It just seems odd that someone hasn't already established the AA breakdown of what 1/4 flex, 1/2 flex, and full flex blanks would actually read. But I can figure out what I have with the <59 for slow and >66 for fast - if those numbes are truly gospel. Thanks.

No, the deflection isn't for selecting a line, it's for taking power and action measurements on a rod blank. And not just fly rod blanks - the CCS doesn't know one from another.

Once you have action expressed in degrees, you no longer need a handful of low resolution terms. I don't think you'll find such terms used in any system of relative measurement. I've never seen them on a tape measure, bathroom scale or thermometer.

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The action angle component of the CCS is geometric where as the old three or four point fast, moderate, slow system was just an "eyeball" measurement. Plus I'll take what comes out to about forty five points of reference any day over just three to six. Using the thermometer analogy that was brought up, I don't need anyone to tell me that 90 degrees is hot! I can read that measurement and go outside and feel it. Once I learn it, I will always know what it represents to me. Same with the AA numbers. More than just being relative, once you use them enough you start to know what amount of tip flex each represents. So there really isn't any reason for anyone to try and overlay one system on the other.

As much as we’d all like to think that the CCS (or RDS) is universal, unfortunately, in the real-world, it is not. Even within the “system(s)”, slightly differing “holding devices” skewed readings can result (another subject). The “promised” CCS ratings that some of the manufacturers were going to be providing, is for some reason, slow in coming. (One of the major blank makers has discontinued providing them.)

In order to have somewhat of a comparison between “systems”, I’ve found it useful to not only measure my blanks/rods by “my customized “system”, but by those used by other builders and blank suppliers, including the ambiguous “slow”, “mod”, “mod-fast”, “fast” and “x-fast”. FWIW, my conversion from “my” Action Angles are: <59 deg = slow; 59-63 deg = mod; 63-66 deg = mod/fast; 66-70 deg = fast; >70 deg = x-fast. Although the conversions are still comparatively vague, they’re still helpful in categorizing the ranges for various applications and/or techniques. I also “convert” my Power measurements for the same reason. Even though the Power and the Action Angle are interrelated, I consider the Power to be the primary reading and the spec sheets of my rods are listed numerically by the lowest to the highest Power. My conversions to the more generic categories are: 100-130c/.12-.38 oz = med-light; 130-180c/.25-.50 oz = medium; 180-240c/.38-.62 oz = med-hvy; 240-400c/.50-1.50 oz = hvy. (Note: these are Casting blanks/rods)

Admittedly, “my system” is slightly inconsistent with others and I have also revised/refined it over time to better suit my purposes. I also have the means to roughly correlate to the Powers and Actions to blanks/rods of other builders and blank makers.

Thanks Jim,

"FWIW, my conversion from “my” Action Angles are: <59 deg = slow; 59-63 deg = mod; 63-66 deg = mod/fast; 66-70 deg = fast; >70 deg = x-fast".

Right, wrong, or indifferent - it makes pretty good sense to me . . .

Mr. Collins,
I don't know if you have any experience using Microsoft Excel. If so you can run all sorts of interesting comparisons and charts by copying the type from the CCS Data Site (this link is shown above on the left) and pasting it into Excel as "html" format type. Once you have the data in a format you can sort, group, filter, etc, you can compare specific ranges of ERN and/or AA to many models and factory line wt ratings and get a bird's eye view of what the industry considers fast, moderate, and so on.... What you find may or may not mesh with your own preferences, but at least its a good place to start building a frame of reference for CCS numbers. I hope this helps.

-The Batson TEAM
BatsonEnterprises.com

Thanks Geoff, I did look thru the CCS data to get an idea but that would be assuming that everyone can measur the AA perfect every time - which I doubt is the case. Years ago I asked if "20 Rodmakers passed the same blank around and static tested it for guide spacings, how much variance would there be"? The responders agreed there would be a wide range of variances even if they all took turns with the same blank. So thinking that everyone is going to measure AA identically the same is a stretch in my opinion.

I think Jim's breakdown of <59 to >66 makes pretty good sense. Whether 66 degrees is mod fast or fast isn't a big deal, I know it more than just moderate. Thanks for the tip though.

Mr. Collins,
You make a good point about the variation in measurements. I think the point where most variation is likely to occur is in the method of holding the blanks butt section in place for deflection and how the blank is leveled. My personal interpretations of how the blank/rod should be secured are:
1. The points of the jig holding the blank/rod should be located as close to the butt as is practical and at least at or rearward of a blanks approximate grip area as the casting related flexing of the rod will occur forward of that area.
2. The blank/rod should be leveled along it's center line, rather than an edge of it's profile. It is my understanding that if the tip of a blank/rod droops after it's butt section is leveled, that droop becomes part of the deflection measurement.

-The Batson TEAM
BatsonEnterprises.com